Learning another language. What works?

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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#21  Postby Animavore » Dec 03, 2012 5:34 pm

... and still he cannot speak a word of Portuguese :lol:
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#22  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 03, 2012 5:36 pm

Animavore wrote:... and still he cannot speak a word of Portuguese :lol:


Does he have to? :naughty2:
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#23  Postby MarkP80 » Dec 03, 2012 6:00 pm

As a portuguese married to a brazilian, I can tell you the difference between the two is not that great.
Sure for someone who doesn't speak it, it sounds like two different languages.
But that is just because of the accent.
The words are basically the same. It's mainly the accent and the way verbs are used.
Here in the USA, we live as a single community, for the most part. Even though there is a lot of rivalry and hard feelings between many on both sides.
But yeah, if she's brazilian, it wouldn't make sense to learn the european portuguese.
If he does learn either one, he'll be able to communicate with both kinds though.
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#24  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 03, 2012 7:45 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Saim wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:@[color=#CC0000][b][color=#CC0000][b][color=#CC0000][b]Saim[/b][/color][/b][/color][/b][/color]

Well my sister noticed a great difference between Mexican Spanish (as spoken in Mexico city) and the Spanish of Madrid.

There is, but it's not enough to cause any serious barriers to communication, except with slang words (like if you want to say words/phrases equivalent to "cute" [lindo MX vs. mono ES], "cool"[chido, chingón MX vs. guay ES] "awesome" [padre MX vs. mola ES], "I don't give a shit" [me vale madre MX vs. me la suda ES] that's very different) or if you're talking about fruit or something (food seems to vary a lot between Spanish dialects for some reason).

You can still hear Vlaams spoken in Dunkirk (Duinekerken).

Unfortunately only by the older people IIRC. The French have done a lot to eradicate minority languages (although let's not get to that topic again :P ).

West Vlanderen is wierdest dialect of Vlaams

I thought Limburgish was harder to understand? Or do you not count that as Vlaams? It has been given regional language status lately.


They are trying to get Limburgish the same status as Fries but the trouble Fries is a seperate language and not just a dialect which Limburgish is. Mind you I understand Fries much better than someone from Maastricht speaking full dialect. So many German words.

As my English Lit teacher once said:
The only difference between a dialect and a language is that the first has not yet been put into a rigid frame of rules. Therefore to suggest that dialects are somehow less, or less worthy of recognition is rather ludicrous.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#25  Postby Tim Danaher » Dec 03, 2012 7:54 pm

I thought the difference between a dialect and a language was that a language has an army?
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#26  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 03, 2012 8:01 pm

Tim Danaher wrote:I thought the difference between a dialect and a language was that a language has an army?

I don't get it....
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#27  Postby Saim » Dec 04, 2012 6:33 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:

They are trying to get Limburgish the same status as Fries but the trouble Fries is a seperate language and not just a dialect which Limburgish is. Mind you I understand Fries much better than someone from Maastricht speaking full dialect. So many German words.

The thing is there's no real objective way to draw the line between languages and dialects. You could use "mutual intelligibility" as a criterion, but the problem is there are different levels of intelligibility and it also varies from person to person.

They're not necessarily German words, but rather that Limburgish is a variety transitional between Dutch and Middle Franconian (the latter of which is seen as a German "dialect"). The division between "Dutch dialects" and "German dialects" doesn't really have much of a philological basis, as Low Saxon (Plattdeutsch) varieties (which are spoken on both sides of the border, including the traditional dialects of Groningen and Hamburg for example) are closer to standard Dutch than to standard German. There is also the German dialect "East Bergish", and Limburgish and East Bergish are closer to each other than either is to their respective standards.

In any case, this would mean that Limburgish is further from ABN than Westvlaams, would it not?

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
As my English Lit teacher once said:
The only difference between a dialect and a language is that the first has not yet been put into a rigid frame of rules. Therefore to suggest that dialects are somehow less, or less worthy of recognition is rather ludicrous.

I don't really agree with that. "Dialects" have a set of rules just as literary varieties do. The difference between a dialect and a standardized literary variety (for me both are worthy of the title "language") is that in the latter

Let's take African American Vernacular English as an example. Look at how complex its verb morphology is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAVE#Tense_and_aspect

As you can see, I been flown it and I done fly it are grammatical AAVE sentences that would not be permissable in standard English. However, that doesn't mean AAVE has no rules - I been fly it* and I done flown it* would be ungrammatical if this description is complete and I've understood it correctly.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Tim Danaher wrote:I thought the difference between a dialect and a language was that a language has an army?

I don't get it....

This is a famous quote by a Yiddish linguist, Max Weinrich. Essentially, it's a language if its the standard form of a nation-state (which has an army and a navy), whereas a dialect is not, i.e. it's all political.

Take note at what I mentioned earlier. Low German is closer to Dutch than to standard German, and yet because they see themselves as nationally Germans its a "German dialect". The same happens for Limburgish and other West Germanic varieties I mentioned in my response to Scot Dutchy.
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#28  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 04, 2012 7:43 am

How do you explain Frisian then? Friesland isn't a country.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#29  Postby Corneel » Dec 04, 2012 9:26 am

Saim wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:

They are trying to get Limburgish the same status as Fries but the trouble Fries is a seperate language and not just a dialect which Limburgish is. Mind you I understand Fries much better than someone from Maastricht speaking full dialect. So many German words.

The thing is there's no real objective way to draw the line between languages and dialects. You could use "mutual intelligibility" as a criterion, but the problem is there are different levels of intelligibility and it also varies from person to person.

They're not necessarily German words, but rather that Limburgish is a variety transitional between Dutch and Middle Franconian (the latter of which is seen as a German "dialect"). The division between "Dutch dialects" and "German dialects" doesn't really have much of a philological basis, as Low Saxon (Plattdeutsch) varieties (which are spoken on both sides of the border, including the traditional dialects of Groningen and Hamburg for example) are closer to standard Dutch than to standard German. There is also the German dialect "East Bergish", and Limburgish and East Bergish are closer to each other than either is to their respective standards.

In any case, this would mean that Limburgish is further from ABN than Westvlaams, would it not?

The thing is that any line drawn between Limburgish and Brabantic (the Flemish dialect group closest to ABN and one of the sources of it) will be arbitrary. (Eg two of the possible lines used are a. the line that separates the dialects using "ik/mij" as first person singular form those using "ich/mich" or b. the use of tonality (in Limburgish)). So dialects just to the South East of those lines will be pretty close to Brabantic and thus closer to ABN than for instance the dialects spoken in the Westhoek. But small differences accumulate as you go from west to east and Limburgish dialects get closer to German dialects (with the understanding that any line drawn between German and Dutch dialects is just as arbitrary as the one between Limburgish and Brabantic, Dutch and German form one dialect continuum). And thus dialects from for instance Heerlen or Sittard might be further from ABN than dialects of the Westhoek.
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#30  Postby Saim » Dec 05, 2012 5:41 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:How do you explain Frisian then? Friesland isn't a country.

It's not a rule, or a theory. It's something that happens a lot, but not always.
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Re: Learning another language. What works?

#31  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 13, 2013 6:29 pm

Necessity is the best teacher.

Tell your mate to get himself a ticket and dump himself in Brazil for a few months! :)
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