thou and thee

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Re: thou and thee

#21  Postby Zwaarddijk » Dec 23, 2011 12:43 pm

nunnington wrote:I grew up in a part of Yorkshire (East Riding) where 'thou' and 'thee' were commonly used. I am talking about the 50s and 60s. Thus, my grandfather would say, 'wesh thi mucky face', (wash your mucky face), 'face' incidentally with a diphthong, as in Geordie, sort of 'fey-ass'. 'Ast tha getten tooith-wark?' (have you got tooth-ache).

Wouldn't that be a triphthong in face in that case? Or are vowel + [j] not considered diphthongs in English phonology?
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Re: thou and thee

#22  Postby nunnington » Dec 23, 2011 12:52 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:
nunnington wrote:I grew up in a part of Yorkshire (East Riding) where 'thou' and 'thee' were commonly used. I am talking about the 50s and 60s. Thus, my grandfather would say, 'wesh thi mucky face', (wash your mucky face), 'face' incidentally with a diphthong, as in Geordie, sort of 'fey-ass'. 'Ast tha getten tooith-wark?' (have you got tooth-ache).

Wouldn't that be a triphthong in face in that case? Or are vowel + [j] not considered diphthongs in English phonology?


I'm not sure. Normal 'face' in English is a diphthong anyway, isn't it? I think in phonetic script, /feis/. In some dialects, replaced by a monophthong, e.g. Northern dialects. Geordie and some parts of Yorks seem to exaggerate the diphthong. Diphthongs used to be known as 'glides' as you glide from one vowel to another, and some element of /j/ may be involved.
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Re: thou and thee

#23  Postby nunnington » Dec 23, 2011 12:53 pm

Interesting how 'youse guys' is a sort of double plural.
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Re: thou and thee

#24  Postby don't get me started » Dec 23, 2011 2:04 pm

Not forgetting utterance final 'ye' in emphatic senses.(It has to be 'ye', not 'you', for full effect.)

"Come 'ere you little git, ye."

With reference to the Germanic sounding "Sit yoursel down.", Cumbrian and SW Scottish (where I was born) has some distinctly Germanic preferences: 'Starved' to refer to dying or suffering in a general sense, not just with hunger. Cognate with German 'Sterben' to die. My mum would say in winter, "Oh, it's starvation out there."

Also 'ken' as in 'D'ye ken John Peel...?' Cognate with German 'Kennen', 'to know'.

George McDonald Fraser, writer of the Flashman books was from Carlisle, my home town, and wrote his memoir of his war experiences in Burma with the Border Regiment.(Quartered Safe out here) He wrote an introduction detailing the workings of the Cumbrian dialect which is fascinating in itself. Not only did he catch the nuances of pronunciation and vocabulary, he perfectly captured the wry tone of speaking, so typical of that area. My favorite example concerns how he and his comrades learned about the end of the war, whilst stuck in some leprous jungle camp. (I'm paraphrasing from memory here)

"Ey up, Grandarse, 'ave ye 'eard whatt the've said on t' wireless?"
" Noh, what's that then?"
"Well, thi Yanks 'ave dropped a bomb the size of a pencil on Tokyo and blown th' whole place tuh smithereens."
"Oh aye, what wuh thu aiming foh?, 'ong Kong?"
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Re: thou and thee

#25  Postby Regina » Dec 23, 2011 2:12 pm

THWOTH wrote:I was taught that thees and thous represented the informal and formal second person singular. An equivalent in German is du and zu I believe. Of course, that does not account for 'thy' and 'thine.' :whistle:

:scratch:
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Re: thou and thee

#26  Postby THWOTH » Dec 23, 2011 2:42 pm

Of course, my mind was elsewhere.
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Re: thou and thee

#27  Postby Regina » Dec 23, 2011 2:45 pm

THWOTH wrote:Of course, my mind was elsewhere.

Ooooooooh.........an out-of-body experience? :o
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Re: thou and thee

#28  Postby THWOTH » Dec 23, 2011 2:48 pm

Yeah, probably dreaming of cake or something...

Ye is another you and yous too.
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Re: thou and thee

#29  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 23, 2011 2:57 pm

Youse is very much part of Glaswegian as in "See youse" when talking to a group.

Here the personal form is taking over the impersonal form in many places. At school kids call their teachers "jij" instead of the formal "U". In the work place everbody is now called "jij". Even when you speak to the directors.

For people of my generation it is still wierd.
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Re: thou and thee

#30  Postby Fallible » Dec 23, 2011 3:00 pm

And ya. 'Ave ya got a tenner?
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Re: thou and thee

#31  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 23, 2011 3:02 pm

Fallible wrote:And ya. 'Ave ya got a tenner?


Or the "See youse Jimmy" in the singular.
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Re: thou and thee

#32  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 23, 2011 3:03 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fallible wrote:And ya. 'Ave ya got a tenner?


Or the "See youse Jimmy" in the singular.


It was never used in Edinburgh ofcourse :snooty:
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Re: thou and thee

#33  Postby THWOTH » Dec 23, 2011 3:14 pm

bum-bum-tush! :D
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Re: thou and thee

#34  Postby Bogdog » Feb 25, 2012 1:08 am

The usage still survives, certainly in South Yorkshire and parts of north Nottinghamshire, and probably other places. Thee is used as is, whereas "tha" is used for both "thy" and "thou".

"Is that tha watch?" ... (Is that your timepiece, my good Sir?) Pronounced slightly longer than ...

"Tha knows what time it is." ... (You're bloody late). Pronounced quite short.

"Thine" also survives.
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Re: thou and thee

#35  Postby cherubfish » Mar 07, 2012 12:17 pm

Always did ask why "you" is both singular and plural, back when I was in primary school.
English is the only language I've learnt that does that.

Thou and thee is still kind of common in some Quaker schools in North Yorkshire...
Heard people saying that.
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Re: thou and thee

#36  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Mar 08, 2012 12:20 am

mraltair wrote:In Corby they use 'youse' for plural of 'you' and also as a replacement to 'thee'...

I thought only Scousers used that word.
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