GCSE Probability calculation

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GCSE Probability calculation

#1  Postby RobM » Jun 05, 2015 9:53 am

Some of you may have seen this. A GCSE question has provoked a storm on the internet as it is said to be too hard.

This is the question.

There are n sweets in a bag. Six of the sweets are orange. The rest of the sweets are yellow.

'Hannah takes a sweet from the bag. She eats the sweet. Hannah then takes at random another sweet from the bag. She eats the sweet.

'The probability that Hannah eats two orange sweets is 1/3. Show that n²-n-90=0


I passed my maths degree over 40 years ago but I managed to solve this in about 1 minute.

One of the internet comments was "My mum works for an accountancy company and it took 4 accountants 2hrs to answer the sweets Q. They have maths degrees." Remind me never to trust accountants. ;)
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#2  Postby Pulsar » Jun 05, 2015 10:31 am

Took me 3 seconds. FFS, this is kindergarten stuff.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#3  Postby newolder » Jun 05, 2015 10:33 am

... but why isn't the question, "How many sweets were in the bag to start with?". :dunno:
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#4  Postby RobM » Jun 05, 2015 10:39 am

Pulsar wrote:Took me 3 seconds. FFS, this is kindergarten stuff.

I included time to read the question and write down the answer :)
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#5  Postby TopCat » Jun 05, 2015 11:23 am

I'm disappointed, but not surprised they found this hard.

I do a fair bit of private tutoring up to A Level in Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and at GCSE particularly, I find that they consistently find it hard to conceptualise a variable simply as 'a number that we don't know yet' - and then manipulate it in the same way as they would a number.

I think it's a consequence of the way algebra is taught - usually very badly, and in particular as something that is different from arithmetic, and therefore scary.

It's ok if the question is obviously "an algebra question", like "factorise this", or "solve this", because they follow techniques they've practised. But in applying the techniques, they often don't appreciate that what they're doing is (mostly) not different from what they're already confident doing with numbers.

If they had been told what N was, they'd have been able to draw a tree diagram and calculate the probability of getting two orange sweets perfectly well.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#6  Postby spike » Jun 05, 2015 5:28 pm

I can't see how this question is different to saying that hannah took 2 random sweets out of the bag simultaneously and saying the probability that they're both orange is 1/3 which to me gives (6/n)(6/n)=1/3 so n =6sqrt3!
The question seems to be saying that the probability should be (6/n)(5/(n-1))=1/3 which gives n=10 but this just seems wrong to me from the way the question is asked.
Ive got a maths exam on monday and I'm a bit concerned with whichever bit of basic maths I've buggered up to get this result! Please put me out of my misery!
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#7  Postby Evolving » Jun 05, 2015 5:40 pm

The probability of getting orange the first time is 6 over n; the probability of getting orange again is 5 over (n minus 1) because there is now one orange sweet less in the bag; and the probability of getting orange both times is the product of those two fractions. That then gives you the quadratic equation.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#8  Postby pcCoder » Jun 05, 2015 5:46 pm

Lets see here. Six of the sweets are orange. Total n sweets.

Probability first pick is orange: 6 / n
Probability second pick is orange after first pick was already orange: 5 / (n - 1)
Probability of both being orange (6 / n) * (5 / (n - 1)) = 1/3
Simplify some: 30 / (n^2 - n) = 1/3
Cross multiply: 90 = n^2 - n
Arrange: 0 = n^2 - n - 90


That's actually pretty simple, and my math days are behind me.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#9  Postby newolder » Jun 05, 2015 5:48 pm

@spike, The question as asked has two solutions (roots) for n. 10 and -9 are those roots but since -9 is not a physical number of sweets that one can hold in a bag, the solution n=10 is taken as physical.

6 times the square root of three is not an integer number of sweets. 6 times the positive root of 3 gives an irrational number of sweets that is not physical and 6 times the negative root of 3 gives a negative irrational number of sweets that is also not physical. This should have alerted you to some faulty logic in your reasoning.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#10  Postby Evolving » Jun 05, 2015 5:49 pm

If you want to consider drawing two sweets out simultaneously, consider how many possible pairs of sweets there are (9 + 8 + ... + 1 = 45), and how many of them are both orange (5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 15).
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#11  Postby campermon » Jun 05, 2015 5:49 pm

pcCoder wrote:Lets see here. Six of the sweets are orange. Total n sweets.

Probability first pick is orange: 6 / n
Probability second pick is orange after first pick was already orange: 5 / (n - 1)
Probability of both being orange (6 / n) * (5 / (n - 1)) = 1/3
Simplify some: 30 / (n^2 - n) = 1/3
Cross multiply: 90 = n^2 - n
Arrange: 0 = n^2 - n - 90


That's actually pretty simple, and my math days are behind me.


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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#12  Postby spike » Jun 05, 2015 6:24 pm

Thank you all, better now:-)
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#13  Postby zulumoose » Jun 05, 2015 7:41 pm

I attacked it a bit differently, if n squared minus n is 90, then n is 10.
now we know that there ia a 60% chance of the first one being orange, and 5/9 chance of the next.

60%of 5 is 3, so 3/9 is 1/3

simple, but not the way that would get full marks.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#14  Postby twistor59 » Jun 05, 2015 7:52 pm

If they'd stated that, out of the N, 6 were legal highs and the rest were jelly babies, the kids would have got it.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#15  Postby campermon » Jun 05, 2015 8:08 pm

twistor59 wrote:If they'd stated that, out of the N, 6 were legal highs and the rest were jelly babies, the kids would have got it.


:rofl:

Winz teh netz post of teh day

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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#16  Postby Thommo » Jun 05, 2015 8:36 pm

TopCat wrote:I'm disappointed, but not surprised they found this hard.

I do a fair bit of private tutoring up to A Level in Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and at GCSE particularly, I find that they consistently find it hard to conceptualise a variable simply as 'a number that we don't know yet' - and then manipulate it in the same way as they would a number.


I think this is spot on.

I asked a couple of people of my acquaintance (adults) the question and even though they could answer a question like "what's the probability of drawing a spade from a deck of cards, then rolling a six on a dice", they found the question confusing because n is unknown, whereas the number of cards/faces on a dice is known to be 52 and 6 respectively.

For some reason combining simple algebra and simple probability (which are doubtless on the syllabus) seems to throw people out of their comfort zone. I can only agree this must come down to how algebra is taught.

Whether the children have a valid complaint about the exam being too hard probably comes down to what's on the syllabus and what tier this paper the question comes from is. If it's supposed to separate out the better students I don't see much of a problem with it.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#17  Postby campermon » Jun 05, 2015 8:40 pm

Thommo wrote:

I asked a couple of people of my acquaintance (adults) the question and even though they could answer a question like "what's the probability of drawing a spade from a deck of cards, ..."


It's fucking impossible man!

If you want to draw a spade, you need a pen or a pencil. Not a fucking pack of cards.

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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#18  Postby Thommo » Jun 05, 2015 8:49 pm

:lol:
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#19  Postby Evolving » Jun 05, 2015 9:01 pm

Evolving wrote:If you want to consider drawing two sweets out simultaneously, consider how many possible pairs of sweets there are (9 + 8 + ... + 1 = 45), and how many of them are both orange (5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 15).


This is why I love maths. You do a completely different calculation and still get the same answer.

Of course you do, because it's maths; but it's still really satisfying when it happens.
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Re: GCSE Probability calculation

#20  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 06, 2015 2:17 am

Step by step:

[1] If there are n total items to select from randomly, and k items (0<=k<=n) are of a given type, then the probability of selecting one of those k items from that collection of n total items is k/n.

[2] After the first selection takes place above, if the selected item is one of the k items of the specified type, then one is left with a total n-1 items, of which k-1 are of the given type.

[3] If a second selection now takes place, then the probability of selecting one of the k-1 items of the given type from the remaining n-1 items is (k-1)/(n-1).

[4] Since these are independent selection events, the total probability of selecting two of the k items of the given type from the available n items at the start, is therefore (k/n)×[(k-1)/(n-1)] = [k(k-1)]/[n(n-1)]

[5] If that total probability is specified as P, then we have:

P = [k(k-1)]/[n(n-1)]

Therefore n(n-1) = [k(k-1)]/P

[6] We are given that k=6, and P=1/3. This gives us:

n(n-1) = (6×5)/(1/3) = 90

Therefore the resulting equation is n2-n-90 = 0.

Factorising this equation gives us (n-10)(n+9) =0. This has solutions n=-9 and n=10.

Since the total number of items n has to be greater than 0, the desired solution is n=10. There are 10 sweets in total in the selection set, of which 6 are orange, 4 are yellow. As a check, the probability of the first selection of an orange sweet is 6/10, and the probability of the second selection of an orange sweet is 5/9. This gives us a probability for the two selections of (6×5)/(10×9) = 30/90 = 1/3.
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