Integration from first principles

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Integration from first principles

 
 

Integration from first principles

#1  Postby gmk2 » Dec 26, 2010 4:44 pm

Is there any way of looking at integration other than it simply being differentiation backwards? Can you derive a formula for integration fromfirst principlesin the same way you can for differentiation? I don't strictly need to know, but looking at it as simply doing differentiation backwards doesn't seem very rigourous, and I prefer to try and understand concepts as deeply as I can. :?
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Re: Integration from first principles

#2  Postby twistor59 » Dec 26, 2010 4:48 pm

gmk2 wrote:Is there any way of looking at integration other than it simply being differentiation backwards? Can you derive a formula for integration fromfirst principlesin the same way you can for differentiation? I don't strictly need to know, but looking at it as simply doing differentiation backwards doesn't seem very rigourous, and I prefer to try and understand concepts as deeply as I can. :?


Yep, the Riemann integral. Integration is basically just adding stuff up.
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Re: Integration from first principles

#3  Postby gmk2 » Dec 26, 2010 5:17 pm

Thank you. :smile:
I admit, a lot of the wikipedia stuff went over my head, but a bit of reading around has cleared it up for me.
I guess it's only possible to use this if you can come up with an expression for a sum to n in terms of n?
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Re: Integration from first principles

#4  Postby Jakov » Dec 26, 2010 5:53 pm

What's not rigorous about antidifferentiation being integration? You can prove it same as any other theorem.
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Re: Integration from first principles

#5  Postby twistor59 » Dec 26, 2010 6:22 pm

What Jakov said is true - the motivation is quite well explained in the "geometric intuition" section here, ahd the rigorous derivation is there too....
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Re: Integration from first principles

#6  Postby Paul1 » Dec 26, 2010 8:42 pm

As my teacher used to say in 6th form:

"Ya do Dee Why by Dee Ex and, eef ya theenk aboot it, you get Dee Why by Dee Ex Squared"
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Re: Integration from first principles

#7  Postby twistor59 » Dec 26, 2010 9:41 pm

Paul1 wrote:As my teacher used to say in 6th form:

"Ya do Dee Why by Dee Ex and, eef ya theenk aboot it, you get Dee Why by Dee Ex Squared"


You were taught maths by a Romulan ?
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Re: Integration from first principles

#8  Postby ashley » Dec 27, 2010 4:34 am

gmk2 wrote:Is there any way of looking at integration other than it simply being differentiation backwards?


Yes, integration can be defined completely independently of differentiation. I can think of situations where a generalised concept of integral is applicable and derivative probably isn't, and vice versa.

Can you derive a formula for integration from first principles in the same way you can for differentiation?


If by "formula for differentiation", you mean lim[(f(x)-f(y))/(x-y)] as y->x, there are formulae like that for integrals. If you only need to integrate nice functions like continuous functions you can keep it quite simple and it lets you calculate the value of an integral to arbitrary precision as long as you can calculate the values of the function. As you work with nastier and nastier functions the simple definitions break down and you have to use more convoluted definitions (there are lots of ways of doing it), and a formula expressing it will become an impractical messy pile of symbols. The highly abstract definitions need to be used in contexts where nice formulae for things are a great luxury anyway, and you will probably not have any way of calculating the actual values of the function, you just know it has certain properties and you want to know what else you can say about it.

If you mean you have a formula defining a function in terms of certain other functions like sin and log that you regard as especially friendly, and you want to turn it into an exact formula for an antiderivative of it, this is usually much more difficult than for derivatives, and can be impossible even with quite friendly formulae, though surprisingly, it apparently is always possible to decide when it is doable with the so-called "elementary" functions and to do it when you can. This is not really important for understanding what integration actually is though. I've never understood why people fixate on those functions anyway.

I don't strictly need to know, but looking at it as simply doing differentiation backwards doesn't seem very rigourous


Once you properly define integrals, you can rigourously prove their relation to antiderivatives.

I prefer to try and understand concepts as deeply as I can. :?


Afaik, at the deepest level integration is a way that linear functionals arise naturally from measures. If you are just starting to learn about integrals you are probably not in a position to understand this.
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Re: Integration from first principles

 
 

Re: Integration from first principles

#9  Postby stijndeloose » Jun 15, 2011 10:15 am


!
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You have spammed this post:

harleyborgais wrote:Can I please get someone from this thread to join the discussion at "Work of Harley Borgais" thread and contribute some understanding of Einsteins Field equations?


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