chinese woo drink helps beat alcohol (in rats)

cavarka9 · #1 by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 7:15 pm

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... drunk.html

For hardened drinkers, it sounds too good to be true: a natural substance that keeps them sober no matter how much they drink, neutralises hangovers and eventually breaks the cycle of alcohol addiction...

Shrunk · #2 by **Shrunk** » Jan 09, 2012 7:39 pm

cavarka9 wrote:http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21337-chinese-tree-extract-stops-rats-getting-drunk.html

For hardened drinkers, it sounds too good to be true: a natural substance that keeps them sober no matter how much they drink, neutralises hangovers and eventually breaks the cycle of alcohol addiction...

Don't see why this would be be considered "woo." They are going thru the accepted scientific method of testing the hypothesis that this is an effective treatment, and there is even a plausible and testable putatutive mechanism for its effect that relies on nothing more than plain old biochemistry.

HughMcB · #3 by **HughMcB** » Jan 09, 2012 7:47 pm

Why is this a "woo" drink?

Wiðercora · #4 by **Wiðercora** » Jan 09, 2012 8:18 pm

For hardened drinkers, it sounds too good to be true: a natural substance [...]

As opposed to what? A supernatural substance?

Shrunk · #5 by **Shrunk** » Jan 09, 2012 8:23 pm

Wiðercora wrote:
For hardened drinkers, it sounds too good to be true: a natural substance [...]

As opposed to what? A supernatural substance?

As opposed to artificial, I suppose. You know, made by those evil drug companies who want to kill us all.

Wiðercora · #6 by **Wiðercora** » Jan 09, 2012 8:25 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Wiðercora wrote:
For hardened drinkers, it sounds too good to be true: a natural substance [...]

As opposed to what? A supernatural substance?

As opposed to artificial, I suppose. You know, made by those evil drug companies who want to kill us all.

Heh, I know what they mean, I just find it a curious choice of words. Seeing as though they seem to have isolated the chemical what makes this thing tick, if they then extract it and put it in pill form, does it stop being natural? :think:

cavarka9 · #7 by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 8:41 pm

HughMcB wrote:Why is this a "woo" drink?

because it was woo until taken over and tested , but other medicines of this nature are officially not worth testing but pharmaceutical companies have no compulsion in taking over the traditional knowledge from the tribals and making patents out of it.

Mazille · #8 by **Mazille** » Jan 09, 2012 8:59 pm

cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:Why is this a "woo" drink?

because it was woo until taken over and tested , but other medicines of this nature are officially not worth testing but pharmaceutical companies have no compulsion in taking over the traditional knowledge from the tribals and making patents out of it.

Except you're wrong. There's metric fucktons of biologists, pharmacists and medical doctors working in that field.

cavarka9 · #9 by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 9:24 pm

Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:Why is this a "woo" drink?

because it was woo until taken over and tested , but other medicines of this nature are officially not worth testing but pharmaceutical companies have no compulsion in taking over the traditional knowledge from the tribals and making patents out of it.

Except you're wrong. There's metric fucktons of biologists, pharmacists and medical doctors working in that field.

please do explain where I am wrong,these are considered woo in popular culture and literature, they are officially not worth testing (public acknowledgement to these tribals is rarely given), pharmaceutical companies have no compulsion in taking over the traditional knowledge from the tribals and making patents and might I add, they do not get any discount if the medicines turn out to be successful.
do you realize how big an impact it would be to many of these tribals and the rain forests they live in if pharmaceutical companies do come out with acknowledgement.

HughMcB · **#10** by **HughMcB** » Jan 09, 2012 9:34 pm

I still don't get it, what's the matter here? That the tribes don't receive acknowledgement for their proven natural remedy?

cavarka9 · **#11** by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 9:44 pm

HughMcB wrote:I still don't get it, what's the matter here? That the tribes don't receive acknowledgement for their proven natural remedy?

Woo medicine because it is product of woo belief.

Mazille · **#12** by **Mazille** » Jan 09, 2012 9:46 pm

cavarka9 wrote:
Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:Why is this a "woo" drink?

because it was woo until taken over and tested , but other medicines of this nature are officially not worth testing but pharmaceutical companies have no compulsion in taking over the traditional knowledge from the tribals and making patents out of it.

Except you're wrong. There's metric fucktons of biologists, pharmacists and medical doctors working in that field.

please do explain where I am wrong,these are considered woo in popular culture and literature, they are officially not worth testing

They are worth testing. We have found shit that is worth using. Know how we got aspirin? Because we fucking looked into the old, ethnic, traditional remedy called "willow bark" and found what the active ingredient was. Every bloody rainforest out there is a veritable pharmacy up for grabs and every pharmaceutics company knows that. And you know what the shortest way to finding out which plants or animals do what is? Asking the natives. That is why a whole field of scientific endeavour is named the way it is. Did you not follow my link?

cavarka9 wrote:(public acknowledgement to these tribals is rarely given), pharmaceutical companies have no compulsion in taking over the traditional knowledge from the tribals and making patents

And why exactly is that? Have companies suddenly stopped wanting to earn money?

cavarka9 wrote:and might I add, they do not get any discount if the medicines turn out to be successful.

Wha... Who? You're not making a lot of sense there, mate.

cavarka9 wrote:do you realize how big an impact it would be to many of these tribals and the rain forests they live in if pharmaceutical companies do come out with acknowledgement.

If the companies did, it would mainly mean money for them. Yes, that would probably be good for small tribal communities. Might as well not be, though. In any case, I'd rather we find another pharmaceutical ingredient comparable in impact to aspirin and not have some tiny tribal community thrive, than the other way round.

Also, you're being all over the place. Is the problem that nobody cares about what some ethnic medicines have in store (which is wrong) or is it that the actual ethnicities don't get the credit for what they have to offer ( which is a completely different can of worms)?

cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:I still don't get it, what's the matter here? That the tribes don't receive acknowledgement for their proven natural remedy?

Woo medicine because it is product of woo belief.

If it works it's not woo. The explanation might be woo, but the effect sure as fuck isn't. You know that, right?

Mazille · **#13** by **Mazille** » Jan 09, 2012 9:53 pm

Also:

cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:Why is this a "woo" drink?

because it was woo until taken over and tested

Everything is.

HughMcB · **#14** by **HughMcB** » Jan 09, 2012 9:55 pm

Mazille wrote:Also, you're being all over the place. Is the problem that nobody cares about what some ethnic medicines have in store (which is wrong) or is it that the actual ethnicities don't get the credit for what they have to offer ( which is a completely different can of worms)?

This is what I was getting at too, I'm inclined to think now they mean both.

cavarka9 · **#15** by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 10:00 pm

I followed the link, it tells of the field of finding and testing the medicines of these tribals, but that is like saying we know its out there, it isnt the same as acknowledgement.

Mazille wrote:

cavarka9 wrote:and might I add, they do not get any discount if the medicines turn out to be successful.

Wha... Who? You're not making a lot of sense there, mate.

they parted their knowledge which has brought economic benefit, should they not benefit from parting their knowledge, it makes a lot of sense as far as I am concerned.

Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:do you realize how big an impact it would be to many of these tribals and the rain forests they live in if pharmaceutical companies do come out with acknowledgement.

If the companies did it would mainly mean money for them. Yes, that would probably good for small tribal communities. Might as well not be, though. In any case, I'd rather we find another pharmaceutical comparable in impact to aspirin and not have some tiny tribal community thrive than the other way round.

Also, you're being all over the place. Is the problem that nobody cares about what some ethnic medicines have in store (which is wrong) or is it that the actual ethnicities don't get the credit for what they have to offer ( which is a completely different can of worms)?

both, they neither get benefit for parting their knowledge nor credit.

Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:I still don't get it, what's the matter here? That the tribes don't receive acknowledgement for their proven natural remedy?

Woo medicine because it is product of woo belief.

If it works it's not woo. The explanation might be woo, but the effect sure as fuck isn't. You know that, right?

yes, but it still is woo medicine because it isnt a product of deduction but rather of induction. That is to say, its a guess.

cavarka9 · **#16** by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 10:04 pm

Mazille wrote:Also:
cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:Why is this a "woo" drink?

because it was woo until taken over and tested

Everything is.

agreed but I am concerned with the fact that these tribals are considered pejoratively and their guesses are not treated the same as other kinds of guesses.

Mazille · **#17** by **Mazille** » Jan 09, 2012 10:29 pm

cavarka9 wrote:I followed the link, it tells of the field of finding and testing the medicines of these tribals, but that is like saying we know its out there, it isnt the same as acknowledgement.

Actually, it is. What you mean is monetary compensation, I'd guess.

cavarka9 wrote:
Mazille wrote:

cavarka9 wrote:and might I add, they do not get any discount if the medicines turn out to be successful.

Wha... Who? You're not making a lot of sense there, mate.

they parted their knowledge which has brought economic benefit, should they not benefit from parting their knowledge, it makes a lot of sense as far as I am concerned.

They should. Absolutely. They probably will. A little. Not as much as they ought to on ethical grounds. Now what? Halt the process? Not find new pharmaceuticals?

cavarka9 wrote:
Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:do you realize how big an impact it would be to many of these tribals and the rain forests they live in if pharmaceutical companies do come out with acknowledgement.

If the companies did it would mainly mean money for them. Yes, that would probably good for small tribal communities. Might as well not be, though. In any case, I'd rather we find another pharmaceutical comparable in impact to aspirin and not have some tiny tribal community thrive than the other way round.

Also, you're being all over the place. Is the problem that nobody cares about what some ethnic medicines have in store (which is wrong) or is it that the actual ethnicities don't get the credit for what they have to offer ( which is a completely different can of worms)?

both, they neither get benefit for parting their knowledge nor credit.

See above.

cavarka9 wrote:
Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:I still don't get it, what's the matter here? That the tribes don't receive acknowledgement for their proven natural remedy?

Woo medicine because it is product of woo belief.

If it works it's not woo. The explanation might be woo, but the effect sure as fuck isn't. You know that, right?

yes, but it still is woo medicine because it isnt a product of deduction but rather of induction. That is to say, its a guess.

[/quote]
No. It isn't. Not at all.
It never was a guess. What it was is this: A conclusion that happened to be right arrived at through faulty premises. Willow bark doesn't dull pain because the willow tree resembles a pain-stricken patient. That's sympathetic magic. It dulls pain because it contains a chemical compound that acts on our nervous system. That's science. The original explanation doesn't matter. What does matter is that it works. People found that out, scientists refined the process of obtaining said medical compound and there you go. Aspirin, costing next to nothing and doing shitloads of good.
And that is what this whole deal is about.

Also, I notice that you kinda shifted your goalposts there. Suddenly it's not about "nobody cares about what traditional medicines have to say" and all about "traditional medicines don't get the credit", right after I showed you that your first assumption was wrong. I'm curious as to what caused that shift of focus.

cavarka9 · **#18** by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 10:44 pm

Mazille wrote:
cavarka9 wrote:I followed the link, it tells of the field of finding and testing the medicines of these tribals, but that is like saying we know its out there, it isnt the same as acknowledgement.

Actually, it is. What you mean is monetary compensation, I'd guess.

If it works it's not woo. The explanation might be woo, but the effect sure as fuck isn't. You know that, right?

cavarka9 wrote:
yes, but it still is woo medicine because it isnt a product of deduction but rather of induction. That is to say, its a guess.

Mazille wrote:
No. It isn't. Not at all.
It never was a guess. What it was is this: A conclusion that happened to be right arrived at through faulty premises. Willow bark doesn't dull pain because the willow tree resembles a pain-stricken patient. That's sympathetic magic. It dulls pain because it contains a chemical compound that acts on our nervous system. That's science. The original explanation doesn't matter. What does matter is that it works. People found that out, scientists refined the process of obtaining said medical compound and there you go. Aspirin, costing next to nothing and doing shitloads of good.
And that is what this whole deal is about.

Also, I notice that you kinda shifted your goalposts there. Suddenly it's not about "nobody cares about what traditional medicines have to say" and all about "traditional medicines don't get the credit", right after I showed you that your first assumption was wrong. I'm curious as to what caused that shift of focus.

so if people mention that there are scientists trying figure out whether the medicines of tribals work or not might be an acknowledgement in your opinion. It is not according to me, it is not because they neither get the credit nor benefit in which case how exactly is that an acknowledgement, the fact that in some nook and corner of the literature it exists?.
Second, I made the claim using the specific word official, officially their methods are considered unworthy to waste money on compared to a research scientist who might claim that funding ought to be given to proven methods of research.
So, no No goal shifting, also I never claimed support for traditional medicine, only for credit and financial benefits.
Also, the term woo medicine is justified on the same grounds that as their methods and explanations are not accepted, their medicine is woo compared to a research scientist who claims of discovering a medicine based on his methods irrespective of whether the said medicine of the scientist works or not, because the medicine if it does not work is called failure, not woo. It is woo if it is propagated inspite of its failure.

Mazille · **#19** by **Mazille** » Jan 09, 2012 10:54 pm

I... Wha...

You know what? I'll get back to you tomorrow.

cavarka9 · **#20** by **cavarka9** » Jan 09, 2012 10:57 pm

Mazille wrote:I... Wha...

You know what? I'll get back to you tomorrow.

actually lets just end this here, I am sure we both have better things to do.