Another new guy

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Re: Another new guy

#21  Postby backmarker » Jun 08, 2012 2:29 am

Thanks Durro, I'll dig around a bit. My knee jerk reaction to effects without cause is that all bets are off--I'd have to reverse myself and say that I can't know anything. Heck, I could use it to make claims about virgin births and such :)
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Re: Another new guy

#22  Postby Durro » Jun 08, 2012 2:34 am

Virgin births ?

As Chris Hitchens once put it, what is more likely - that the entire natural order of the universe was suspended or that a young Jewish minx told a lie ?

:lol:
I'll start believing in Astrology the day that all Sagittarians get hit by a bus, as predicted.
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Re: Another new guy

#23  Postby babel » Jun 08, 2012 4:41 am

Durro wrote:Virgin births ?

As Chris Hitchens once put it, what is more likely - that the entire natural order of the universe was suspended or that a young Jewish minx told a lie ?

:lol:

So we can say that Jesus really was a bastard. :shifty:
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Re: Another new guy

#24  Postby backmarker » Jun 08, 2012 1:05 pm

Can anybody sympathize with my reluctance to give up causality? I'm comfortable saying that causes may be unknown (or even unknowable). Has this article been discussed on the forum?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_(physics)
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Re: Another new guy

#25  Postby reddix » Jun 08, 2012 2:29 pm

May I suggest starting some new threads in other fora? Your queries will get a wider audience if you do. :)
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Re: Another new guy

#26  Postby NamelessFaceless » Jun 08, 2012 2:43 pm

Welcome backmarker! :cheers:

I'm curious about what part of the planet you're from. Do you mind sharing?
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Re: Another new guy

#27  Postby backmarker » Jun 08, 2012 3:32 pm

reddix wrote:May I suggest starting some new threads in other fora? Your queries will get a wider audience if you do. :)


Good idea :grin:

NamelessFaceless wrote:Welcome backmarker! :cheers:

I'm curious about what part of the planet you're from. Do you mind sharing?


Hi NamelessFaceless; thanks for the welcome. I live in the NW United States.
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Re: Another new guy

#28  Postby chairman bill » Jun 08, 2012 3:40 pm

Just to clarify - half the time that MacIver says 'of', he means 'have'. He's Scottish/North British, so I suppose that's an excuse of sorts. :smile:

Welcome to RatSkep, BTW
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Re: Another new guy

#29  Postby james1v » Jun 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Hi! :cheers:
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
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Re: Another new guy

#30  Postby backmarker » Dec 27, 2013 8:27 pm

Hi guys, I'm back :P. Can't say my ideas are any more sophisticated than 18 months ago, but I'm still interested in the discussions. Cheers.
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Re: Another new guy

#31  Postby SafeAsMilk » Dec 27, 2013 8:32 pm

Welcome back :cheers: Sophistication has no time limit!
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Re: Another new guy

#32  Postby Evolving » Dec 27, 2013 8:35 pm

Hello, backmarker. I'm so phisticated as I was eighteen months ago: no more, no less. Which is to say, not very.

Welcome back!
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Re: Another new guy

#33  Postby iamthereforeithink » Dec 27, 2013 8:50 pm

Welcome back!

Is is too late to late to point out that below is not correct?

backmarker wrote:
[*]there's no such thing as literal randomness, e.g. effects with no cause[/*]


Quantum theory reveals that everything in the universe is fundamentally stochastic, and experimental violations of Bell's inequality have conclusively flushed all notions of local causality down the shitter.

Here are some relevant papers to get you started:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0807/0807.2041.pdf
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0704.2529.pdf
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Re: Another new guy

#34  Postby backmarker » Dec 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Thanks for the welcome guys (again).

iamthereforeithink wrote:Welcome back!

Is is too late to late to point out that below is not correct?

backmarker wrote:
[*]there's no such thing as literal randomness, e.g. effects with no cause[/*]



Never too late :). I guess effects have causes by definition, so upon review, that statement of mine doesn't seem to say much. I take a look at the links, but I don't know the first thing about quantum theory, so they might be way over my head.
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Re: Another new guy

#35  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 27, 2013 10:45 pm

Wondered why a thread from 2012 had been resurrected ...

Apparently I missed you the first time round. Bar is in that direction, delicatessen (serving chocolate gateau) is over there. Serves gluten free and diabetic friendly fare too.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
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Re: Another new guy

#36  Postby backmarker » Dec 27, 2013 11:50 pm

iamthereforeithink wrote:
Quantum theory reveals that everything in the universe is fundamentally stochastic, and experimental violations of Bell's inequality have conclusively flushed all notions of local causality down the shitter.


I had to look up the meaning of "stochastic" :grin:. Is there no distinction between non-deterministic and uncaused?
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Re: Another new guy

#37  Postby iamthereforeithink » Dec 28, 2013 11:52 am

backmarker wrote:
iamthereforeithink wrote:
Quantum theory reveals that everything in the universe is fundamentally stochastic, and experimental violations of Bell's inequality have conclusively flushed all notions of local causality down the shitter.


I had to look up the meaning of "stochastic" :grin:. Is there no distinction between non-deterministic and uncaused?


There certainly is. Stochasticity by itself says nothing about causality, which is why I distinguished between the two above. The fact that quantum theory indicates that nature is stochastic does not by itself say anything about causality. Violations of local causality are indicated specifically by experimental violations of Bell's inequality. If interested, you could try looking up some popular science articles/ you tube videos related to the EPR paradox and Bell's theorem.
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Re: Another new guy

#38  Postby Ironclad » Dec 28, 2013 6:09 pm

Welcome back. :)
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

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