Who Am I?
I am, as of this writing, 61 years old, married for 38 years, and the father of three grown sons. I was raised in the Episcopal church, and have been active in the church since my conversion to Christianity at age 17. I had briefly espoused atheism, as it seemed the simplest explanation to me at the time, for the world as I knew it. I was deeply influenced by C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. I belong to the Anglican Church in America. Since conversion I have believed the orthodox Christian doctrines (exactly what is said in the Nicene creed). Since conversion I have not been a fan of evolution, finding it completely inconsistent with my faith. I interpret the Bible literally, unless it is obvious by context that it is not. In recent years it occurred to me that what the Bible says about genealogies means the earth can’t be that old. I also find the process of evolution (species appear, extinction events occur, repeat) inconsistent with God as I understand Him. Besides the clear statement in Genesis that this is not what happened, it does not make sense to me that an omnipotent God would need to proceed by trial and error. This led me to Young Earth Creationism. It also led me to investigate more closely the Theory of Evolution, as well as the age of the earth, the age of the universe, and the big bang theory.
Why Am I Here? ?
I am interested in identifying evidence for and against evolution, and evidence for and against creationism. It has been my experience that I can learn more about both from those who disagree with me, than from those who agree. Although much ground has been covered before, on this forum and elsewhere, new insights are constantly coming to light, which keeps the subject interesting.
What is my Background? ?
I have a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics, and a Master of Science in Computer Science. I have worked as a computer instructor, computer programmer and consultant for the last 38 years. In undergraduate school I also studied chemistry (including organic chemistry), Latin and Greek. I have read a variety of books, from both points of view, on evolution
I freely admit to being a lay person. I am not a microbiologist, geologist, or physicist. I believe everyone has worthwhile insight, and that each person should look at both scientific evidence, and their own life experiences, in formulating their beliefs. Neither proponents of ToE, or creationists, have all the answers, or enough answers which are sufficiently satisfying to the other point of view!
How do I Operate? ?
I focus on one topic at a time, that is, the topic of the thread being discussed. I am keen on discussing actual content. I believe that discussions can become unproductive when each party begins to argue In favor of its worldview (typically metaphysical naturalism, versus creationism), rather than over the importance and meaning of the evidence.
When discussing worldview, the approach that makes the most sense to me is to look at the facts, and then determine if more of them make sense in the light of metaphysical materialism, or in the light of creationism.
I am not here to change anyone’s mind. I am here to discuss evidence, and where possible, develop cordial relationships with people whose views may differ from my own.

Welcome Will!

Just pretend that science is a game, not reality. An evolutionary perspective can help cure cancer for example. And many other things. Science is a process of examining natural phenomena and making descriptive models, which have emergent predictions which we then proceed to test to destruction. What is left helps us find out useful things. Quantum mechanics is like a drug-induced fantasy, but nevertheless led to the development of the transistor. Many millions of transistors make the computer you are typing on. Science may be bullshit. Fine. But it is useful bullshit. Science does not conflict with faith, but faith can conflict with science.
HTH.

Welcome to the forum Wilberforce1860.
I won't argue over any of the evolution/creationism stuff here, as this isn't the section for it. I look forward to seeing you around the forum for that though.

Wilberforce1860 wrote:I have a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics, and a Master of Science in Computer Science.

What a coincidence. I don't have a BA in mathematics, but it was my minor before I switched to what became my BA in Philosophy. And I have a BSc in Information systems. So a fair bit of similarity there.

ADParker wrote:Welcome to the forum Wilberforce1860.
I won't argue over any of the evolution/creationism stuff here, as this isn't the section for it. I look forward to seeing you around the forum for that though.

Wilberforce1860 wrote:I have a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics, and a Master of Science in Computer Science.

What a coincidence. I don't have a BA in mathematics, but it was my minor before I switched to what became my BA in Philosophy. And I have a BSc in Information systems. So a fair bit of similarity there.

Too much math and philosophy can be dangerous, I don't quite know how you escaped into rationalism!

Will,

I'm also a believer and resonate with some of what you write but am now in a position of being an "evolutionary theist" or some such thing. Really, I'm only a border-line believer and probably wouldn't qualify as a "true believer" by most conservative estimates despite my deep involvement in the church (Christian Reformed Church).

There is a lot of fascinating discussion here and much to be learned as I agree with your mentioning that you can learn more from those who disagree with you. To be honest, and hopefully not too insulting to the members, you should be prepared for what I consider to be a fairly aggressive frankness in debate that took some getting used to. I shy away from actually writing down my thoughts here as I personally find the discussion moves toward insult and ridicule too quickly and I have a hard time separating insult of an idea from personal insult (personal insults are prohibited by the FUA). I say this, because it would be nice to have someone such as yourself around who can offer a different view without getting too offended by the discussion and leaving prematurely. But, you should be aware that your views are possibly among a very weak minority at this website and you may suffer from a lack of support.

Anyway, glad to have you and hope you learn something new and I hope I do too.

Wilberforce1860.
Welcome. Hope we can answer some questions and raise others.

Welcome.

Oh can I get front row tickets for you and Cali .

It will be a pleasure to see an honest inquirer tap Cali's marvelous depth of knowledge.

He will back up what he says in as much detail as you wish.

Welcome and I will be interested in the outcome of your journey to expand your knowledge.

I suspect he will be a good Huxley to your channeling the misguided bishop
This is a good read....learned something already. ( I mean me - after all - you already knew this yet took the position anyway ).

http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_art ... -june-1860

Wow.

Y'all, ure mum woz a monkey!

Hi Will

Welcome. If you're truly interested in learning from people with different views you won't be disappointed. You'll find that there are a lot of people here knowledgeable in a wide variety of topics.
What I've observed from creationists who have frequented this forum before though, is that they feel that the onus is on the people who accept evolution to provide all the evidence and reasoning to convince them of their position. They also lack a basic understanding of evolution and end up arguing a strawman most of the time. This to me, makes me question their motives, because there is a great deal of scientific literature freely available on the net. What would be more helpful in a rational discourse is to pinpoint the specific areas and claims/evidence which you have trouble understanding or believing.

Wilberforce1860 wrote:Neither proponents of ToE, or creationists, have all the answers...

"All the answers"? What's disturbing is that creationists have so few questions. That smacks of a lack of intellectual openness and honesty.

Wilberforce1860 wrote:I am here to discuss evidence, and where possible, develop cordial relationships with people whose views may differ from my own.

I think we all hope this is true.

r.c wrote:Hi Will

Welcome. If you're truly interested in learning from people with different views you won't be disappointed.

If he thinks he's going to find evidence that counters evolution and evidence that supports creationism, he will be disappointed.

I'd love to see him try, though.

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Too much math and philosophy can be dangerous, I don't quite know how you escaped into rationalism!

Too much math did my head in. As for the other: well there is philosophy and then there is philosophy; some of it seems to turns peoples thinking processes in the oddest of directions, some only enhances rational thought. I'm not exactly what the mix is between the student and the form the teaching takes though, although all of those I studied alongside for an extended period seemed to remain quite lucid.
I did love my logic papers though; something of a mix of philosophy focused squarely on the rational (where logical fallacy recognition is born etc.) and mathematics really.

Sorry to say this, but if you've really been investigating the topic for 44 years and still haven't figured out that creationism is false, then you're not investigating in good faith.

Welcome anyway Wilberforce1860.

RS

Wilberforce1860 wrote:I believe everyone has worthwhile insight

I can think of many examples from the creationist side who are exceptions to this. Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, the entire Discovery Institute, etc. If you simply make a decision to ignore every single thing said by these charlatans and incompetents, you will be doing yourself a favour.

When discussing worldview, the approach that makes the most sense to me is to look at the facts, and then determine if more of them make sense in the light of metaphysical materialism, or in the light of creationism.

Well, this is a big mistake right there. "Metaphysical materialism" is not necessary in order for evolution to be the correct scientific conclusion to be drawn from the evidence, though it is true that it is incompatible with creationism. You're setting yourself up for a false dichotomy here which rules out some of the options available to you (e.g. "Theistic evolution", as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.)

Anyway, welcome. I hope you disappoint my expectations of your contributions to this forum.

BTW, I'm not familiar with "The Anglican Church in America". What is its relationship to the Anglican Church as it exists in England? Certainly the latter has no problem in accepting evolution, and has no truck at all with Young Earthism. From an interview with the Rowan Williams:

AR: Are you comfortable with teaching creationism?

AC: Ahh, not very. Not very. I think creationism is, in a sense, a kind of category mistake, as if the Bible were a theory like other theories. Whatever the biblical account of creation is, it's not a theory alongside theories. It's not as if the writer of Genesis or whatever sat down and said well, how am I going to explain all this.... I know ' In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And for most of the history of Christianity, and I think this is fair enough, most of the history of the Christianity there's been an awareness that a belief that everything depends on the creative act of God, is quite compatible with a degree of uncertainty or latitude about how precisely that unfolds in creative time. You find someone like St. Augustine, absolutely clear God created everything, he takes Genesis fairly literally. But he then says well, what is it that provides the potentiality of change in the world? Well, hence, we have to think, he says, of - as when developing structures in the world, the seeds of potential in the world that drive processes of change. And some Christians responding to Darwin in the 19th Century said well, that sounds a bit like what St. Augustine said of the seeds of processes. So if creationism is presented as a stark alternative theory alongside other theories, I think there's - there's just been a jar of categories, it's not what it's about. And it - it reinforces the sense that...

AR: So it shouldn't be taught?

AC: I don't think it should, actually. No, no. And that's different from saying - different from discussing, teaching about what creation means. For that matter, it's not even the same as saying that Darwinism is - is the only thing that ought to be taught. My worry is creationism can end up reducing the doctrine of creation rather than enhancing it.

maichem wrote:Will,

I'm also a believer and resonate with some of what you write but am now in a position of being an "evolutionary theist" or some such thing. Really, I'm only a border-line believer and probably wouldn't qualify as a "true believer" by most conservative estimates despite my deep involvement in the church (Christian Reformed Church).

There is a lot of fascinating discussion here and much to be learned as I agree with your mentioning that you can learn more from those who disagree with you. To be honest, and hopefully not too insulting to the members, you should be prepared for what I consider to be a fairly aggressive frankness in debate that took some getting used to. I shy away from actually writing down my thoughts here as I personally find the discussion moves toward insult and ridicule too quickly and I have a hard time separating insult of an idea from personal insult (personal insults are prohibited by the FUA). I say this, because it would be nice to have someone such as yourself around who can offer a different view without getting too offended by the discussion and leaving prematurely. But, you should be aware that your views are possibly among a very weak minority at this website and you may suffer from a lack of support.

Anyway, glad to have you and hope you learn something new and I hope I do too.

Thanks Maichem. Given the mission statement of the forum, this is my expectation. I appreciate your sharing your experience, and I have had similar experiences on other forums. I will try not to take things personally, and may even succeed once in a while.