Hi all

Hello and welcome to RatSkep! :smile: Why don't you introduce yourself here? ;)

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Re: Hi all

#21  Postby tinekoyd » Sep 14, 2013 1:04 pm

Briton wrote:
tinekoyd wrote:
Briton wrote:
Quaker wrote:Thank you Briton

Presumably you do think people's values are important as well? Without considering the importance of values it would seem that you'd have no basis for society, laws, social welfare, etc. Or perhaps you consider those values part of a provable truth?

As for whether Quakerism is relevant or not. Most of the time it probably is totally irrelevant to you. It' not a way of life that feels a need to force itself on others, though we do peacefully oppose violence and oppression.


Of course values are important but doesn't matter how high the values a particular belief system might have; that would be be irrelevant to me if it's based on myth. Didn't mean Quakerism in particular.


If someone is taught a value or virtue, let's say honesty, and the way that they're taught is through a myth, does that make it any less valid? Who cares where you get your values from, as long as you get some. Too many people these days lack basic values.


So how do you determine that honesty is of value?


Whatever. Replace it with whatever you think is a value / virtue.
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Re: Hi all

#22  Postby Blip » Sep 14, 2013 1:08 pm

Welcome to RatSkep, Quaker. I was a member of the Society of Friends myself, many years ago, and it has had some influence on my values.
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Re: Hi all

#23  Postby Varangian » Sep 14, 2013 1:13 pm

Nora_Leonard wrote:
tinekoyd wrote:
Briton wrote:
Quaker wrote:Thank you Briton

Presumably you do think people's values are important as well? Without considering the importance of values it would seem that you'd have no basis for society, laws, social welfare, etc. Or perhaps you consider those values part of a provable truth?

As for whether Quakerism is relevant or not. Most of the time it probably is totally irrelevant to you. It' not a way of life that feels a need to force itself on others, though we do peacefully oppose violence and oppression.


Of course values are important but doesn't matter how high the values a particular belief system might have; that would be be irrelevant to me if it's based on myth. Didn't mean Quakerism in particular.


If someone is taught a value or virtue, let's say honesty, and the way that they're taught is through a myth, does that make it any less valid? Who cares where you get your values from, as long as you get some. Too many people these days lack basic values.


:this:

One of the reasons so many people loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer was because of its strong values of loyalty and friendship and endurance. Nobody expected any of us to believe in vampires.

ETA: what I meant to say was that many modern entertainments that have huge followings and communities are effectively myth-based. Myth is a metaphoric genre that touches us in the same place/way as poetry and music. There are a lot of religious people who are inspired by their myths but don't necessarily take them literally.


But we are expected to take Jewish zombies seriously ;)

Quaker, never mind Grumpy Scot. He might appear harsh on the outside, but he is actually a real brute inside ;)
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and you have a practical guarantee of dark morbidities." - H.P. Lovecraft
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Re: Hi all

#24  Postby pensioner » Sep 14, 2013 2:40 pm

Welcome from me as well, I did work for a Quaker school for 5 years, not a happy memory but I did meet some wonderful Quakers. The problem I have is any scandal that the Quakers discovered the Quakers are no different than any other religion they cover it up. That is true.
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Re: Hi all

#25  Postby chairman bill » Sep 14, 2013 3:12 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Well if he posts rubbish expect rubbish back.


But as you can confirm, not every response to the rubbish you sometimes post, is rubbish. Sometimes you get perfectly sensible, rational, informative responses. So it's not all bad.
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Re: Hi all

#26  Postby chairman bill » Sep 14, 2013 3:13 pm

BTW, welcome to RatSkep, Quaker
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
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Re: Hi all

#27  Postby campermon » Sep 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Welcome to the forum Quaker!

:beer: Campers non-alcoholic beer TM

:)
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Re: Hi all

#28  Postby Briton » Sep 14, 2013 3:28 pm

tinekoyd wrote:
Briton wrote:
tinekoyd wrote:You're confusing two entirely different things. Where you get your values from, and the values themselves, are different things. You're not seriously suggesting that a myth that teaches good values is worthless, are you?


Ultimately you have to determine what are good values. Myth can't tell you that.


I never said that myth can tell you that. You still have to decide for yourself, but I'm saying that a myth can convey and illustrate a good value. Throughout history, stories have been used to pass down good values from generation to generation. That's why I maintain that it matters not where you get your values, as long as you get them somehow. Myth or no myth, makes no difference. The truth or otherwise of the story has nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of the value.


But Christians do not just use these myths simply as allegories, they believe and teach them to them to be true. Of course you can use a story to illustrate a point, but the vast majority don't really get their values from the special book; they use their innate values to cherry pick the ones that suit them.
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Re: Hi all

#29  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 3:30 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Hi

Quakerism is for me an anything goes belief system for people who cannot decide.

Sorry no time for it.


Haha, there's an element of truth in that :grin:

The other way of looking at it is that it is a community that supports people to explore their faith rather than having to have already accepted particular dogma. As it happens my faith is quite similar to many more traditional Christians, but I have very much welcomed the opportunity to question and explore it. Many Quakers then do find a very settled faith, so it's not like they cannot ever decide, but they do not feel they must all agree on doctrine in the same way as a confessional church. The Quaker values ('testimonies') of truth, equality, justice, simplicity and peace do bind people together even when elements of doctrine differ.
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Re: Hi all

#30  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 3:36 pm

Briton wrote:Of course values are important but doesn't matter how high the values a particular belief system might have; that would be be irrelevant to me if it's based on myth. Didn't mean Quakerism in particular.


Hi Briton

I see things from a different angle. I actually see another person's beliefs as much less relevant than the values they hold. Whether someone believes the Earth is flat or an oblate sphere matters much less to me than whether they pursue or oppose equality, justice and peace.
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Re: Hi all

#31  Postby tinekoyd » Sep 14, 2013 3:40 pm

Briton wrote:
tinekoyd wrote:
Briton wrote:
tinekoyd wrote:You're confusing two entirely different things. Where you get your values from, and the values themselves, are different things. You're not seriously suggesting that a myth that teaches good values is worthless, are you?


Ultimately you have to determine what are good values. Myth can't tell you that.


I never said that myth can tell you that. You still have to decide for yourself, but I'm saying that a myth can convey and illustrate a good value. Throughout history, stories have been used to pass down good values from generation to generation. That's why I maintain that it matters not where you get your values, as long as you get them somehow. Myth or no myth, makes no difference. The truth or otherwise of the story has nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of the value.


But Christians do not just use these myths simply as allegories, they believe and teach them to them to be true. Of course you can use a story to illustrate a point, but the vast majority don't really get their values from the special book; they use their innate values to cherry pick the ones that suit them.


I think you'll find that christians do generally get their values from the bible. Besides, you agree that a story can be used to illustrate point, so I don't see your need to be pedantic.
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Re: Hi all

#32  Postby tinekoyd » Sep 14, 2013 3:42 pm

Quaker wrote:
Briton wrote:Of course values are important but doesn't matter how high the values a particular belief system might have; that would be be irrelevant to me if it's based on myth. Didn't mean Quakerism in particular.


Hi Briton

I see things from a different angle. I actually see another person's beliefs as much less relevant than the values they hold. Whether someone believes the Earth is flat or an oblate sphere matters much less to me than whether they pursue or oppose equality, justice and peace.


That's exactly right. I have respect for anyone who has decent values and I don't really care where they get them from. This is why to me religion is a very positive thing in most cases. Just because a loud minority cause havoc here and there it doesn't change the fact that religion is a great way to teach values. I don't care about the stories.
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Re: Hi all

#33  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 3:43 pm

james1v wrote:Hi! :cheers:

How much do you give to your church?


We don't really talk about 'church'; we have meetings of Friends. But we have no 'collection' in our local group - we meet in an Anglican church so we do not maintain property. There are no clergy in Quakerism so there is very little to maintain. People contribute to particular causes as they choose (some Quaker groups do maintain their own buildings, so they will find a way to maintain that together).
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Re: Hi all

#34  Postby DougC » Sep 14, 2013 3:46 pm

Hi, Quaker. normaly we just say 'hello'.

I think you hit the 'deep end' option.
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Re: Hi all

#35  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 4:04 pm

Briton wrote:Ultimately you have to determine what are good values. Myth can't tell you that.


Myths, perhaps, have aided people in the exploration of 'good values'. They form a narrative with which all can engage. This perhaps has strengths that moral philosophy lacks (it can be quite impenetrable for many). Myths may also have truth to them, possibly.

I've yet to see a way we can be absolutely sure of what is good or not, though we do seem to, individually and corporately, have some kind of moral compass.
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Re: Hi all

#36  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 4:08 pm

Blip wrote:Welcome to RatSkep, Quaker. I was a member of the Society of Friends myself, many years ago, and it has had some influence on my values.


Hi Blip,

I'm glad you've carried something with you. Perhaps in a similar way I explored Buddhism for a while and, while I no longer do so, I still do still carry some lessons from that time (mostly to avoid the frustration of trying to get the world to fit perfectly to me - perhaps in similar way to the 'serenity prayer'). It could be I too move on from the Friends, though it's a very comfortable fit at this point in life.
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Re: Hi all

#37  Postby Blip » Sep 14, 2013 4:19 pm

Quaker wrote:
Blip wrote:Welcome to RatSkep, Quaker. I was a member of the Society of Friends myself, many years ago, and it has had some influence on my values.


Hi Blip,

I'm glad you've carried something with you. Perhaps in a similar way I explored Buddhism for a while and, while I no longer do so, I still do still carry some lessons from that time (mostly to avoid the frustration of trying to get the world to fit perfectly to me - perhaps in similar way to the 'serenity prayer'). It could be I too move on from the Friends, though it's a very comfortable fit at this point in life.


Well, what's not to like about truth, justice, simplicity and peace? Although, sadly, too many people seem not to share this view.

I too explored Buddhism for a while. Out of interest, are you a vegetarian?
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Re: Hi all

#38  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 4:20 pm

iamthereforeithink wrote:Welcome to the forum! Quakerism is something that was probably a good idea in the 1600s. In 2013, not so much, IMO. Currently, there are better methods available to make sense of the Universe. :cheers:


If you are talking about science as a way of exploring the universe then almost all Quakers embrace science. Remember that it was a Quaker (Sir Arthur Henry Eddington) who provided the empirical evidence to test and then support Einstein - against the British scientific community at the time who had difficulty accepting that a German, in times of great tension between our countries, could provide a better model for the universe than perhaps England's greatest ever scientist (Newton).

On the other side, it is true that few Quakers would see science as the only way to explore our universe and our place and values within that universe. As it is often said it is very hard to get directly from an 'is' to an 'ought'.
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Re: Hi all

#39  Postby Fallible » Sep 14, 2013 4:22 pm

Hi, Quaker. I've been to some meetings myself, with a Quaker friend some years ago. A very pleasant experience, and I was welcomed with open arms and no pressure to convert.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Hi all

#40  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 5:35 pm

Blip wrote:Well, what's not to like about truth, justice, simplicity and peace? Although, sadly, too many people seem not to share this view.

I too explored Buddhism for a while. Out of interest, are you a vegetarian?


:)

No, I've never quite made the step to full vegetarianism. I do eat some meat (free range) about once a week. Sometimes I think of going fully veggie. I think that would be a good thing. Are you veggie?
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