Hi all

Hello and welcome to RatSkep! :smile: Why don't you introduce yourself here? ;)

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Re: Hi all

#41  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 5:38 pm

Fallible wrote:Hi, Quaker. I've been to some meetings myself, with a Quaker friend some years ago. A very pleasant experience, and I was welcomed with open arms and no pressure to convert.


Glad you had a good experience. I too liked the way there was no pressure.
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Re: Hi all

#42  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 5:47 pm

pensioner wrote:Welcome from me as well, I did work for a Quaker school for 5 years, not a happy memory but I did meet some wonderful Quakers. The problem I have is any scandal that the Quakers discovered the Quakers are no different than any other religion they cover it up. That is true.


That's sad to hear - about covering up. That's not living up to Quaker values. I guess we're all human and fallible, but it's still sad to hear of any lack of integrity among the Friends.
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Re: Hi all

#43  Postby Quaker » Sep 14, 2013 5:47 pm

DougC wrote:Hi, Quaker. normaly we just say 'hello'.

I think you hit the 'deep end' option.


:)
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Re: Hi all

#44  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 14, 2013 5:48 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Well if he posts rubbish expect rubbish back.


But as you can confirm, not every response to the rubbish you sometimes post, is rubbish. Sometimes you get perfectly sensible, rational, informative responses. So it's not all bad.


Don't we all post rubbish now again Bill?
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Re: Hi all

#45  Postby chairman bill » Sep 14, 2013 6:12 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Well if he posts rubbish expect rubbish back.


But as you can confirm, not every response to the rubbish you sometimes post, is rubbish. Sometimes you get perfectly sensible, rational, informative responses. So it's not all bad.


Don't we all post rubbish now again Bill?


Indeed, but we don't necessarily get rubbish in response to the rubbish we do post
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Re: Hi all

#46  Postby iamthereforeithink » Sep 14, 2013 6:35 pm

Quaker wrote:
iamthereforeithink wrote:Welcome to the forum! Quakerism is something that was probably a good idea in the 1600s. In 2013, not so much, IMO. Currently, there are better methods available to make sense of the Universe. :cheers:


If you are talking about science as a way of exploring the universe then almost all Quakers embrace science. Remember that it was a Quaker (Sir Arthur Henry Eddington) who provided the empirical evidence to test and then support Einstein - against the British scientific community at the time who had difficulty accepting that a German, in times of great tension between our countries, could provide a better model for the universe than perhaps England's greatest ever scientist (Newton).

On the other side, it is true that few Quakers would see science as the only way to explore our universe and our place and values within that universe. As it is often said it is very hard to get directly from an 'is' to an 'ought'.


A lot of great scientists were and are Christians (or Jews/Muslims/Hindus etc.). That by itself lends no credence to their religion. People are able to compartmentalize. And not only Quakers or theists, few atheists would see science as the only way to explore our universe and our place and values within that universe. The point is, religion of any sort is not a particularly good way to explore our place in the universe, particularly when it comes with a doctrine that leaves little room for "exploration", along with a whole lot of other ridiculous baggage that one is expected to uncritically accept as truth.
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Re: Hi all

#47  Postby Ironclad » Sep 14, 2013 6:36 pm

Welcome to RatSkep, Quaker. My landlords are Quakers, very nice bunch they are too. Probably just how 'real' Christians ought to be, I'm an ardant anti-theist, but I muchly respect these guys, and it's possibly a shame there ain't more of them. More Christians like them, that is.
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Re: Hi all

#48  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 14, 2013 6:38 pm

Quaker wrote:
DougC wrote:Hi, Quaker. normaly we just say 'hello'.

I think you hit the 'deep end' option.


:)


The good thing is that you're swimming just fine! :cheers:

Now mosey over to this thread and join DougC and I having a good laugh!
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Re: Hi all

#49  Postby orpheus » Sep 15, 2013 3:25 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
chairman bill wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Well if he posts rubbish expect rubbish back.


But as you can confirm, not every response to the rubbish you sometimes post, is rubbish. Sometimes you get perfectly sensible, rational, informative responses. So it's not all bad.


Don't we all post rubbish now again Bill?


Not me - never.

:popcorn:

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Welcome! Have some free popcorn. :wave:
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Re: Hi all

#50  Postby Blip » Sep 15, 2013 7:16 am

Quaker wrote:
Blip wrote:Well, what's not to like about truth, justice, simplicity and peace? Although, sadly, too many people seem not to share this view.

I too explored Buddhism for a while. Out of interest, are you a vegetarian?


:)

No, I've never quite made the step to full vegetarianism. I do eat some meat (free range) about once a week. Sometimes I think of going fully veggie. I think that would be a good thing. Are you veggie?


Yes. I shall not elaborate here lest I cause a minor derail in your welcome thread, save to say that I became a veggie in order to reduce the amount of suffering I caused.
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Re: Hi all

#51  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 15, 2013 7:40 am

Cali wrote:First, there is the matter of how the word "faith" is regarded here. I and numerous others contend that faith is nothing more than the treatment of unsupported assertions as purportedly consituting fact. As a corollary, I and others here dispense with it altogether. The behaviour of all too many supernaturalists in this regard is considered to be compelling evidence for this hypothesis.


And just to show you that not all of us think alike here (which makes you a very welcome addition), I and many other atheists don't restrict the word 'faith' in this limited way. I am not prepared to forsake the experience of faith, as in having an optimistic outlook. No matter how many times I might be badgered to do this, there are many words that I, as an atheist, feel are good descriptors of some of my own experience (another example being soul, which I use to describe something that touches—or involves—me on a very deep level).

Of course I wouldn't be so foolish to use them in a discussion here unless I was prepared to spend hours defining to the nub exactly what I meant.

And it goes without saying (as I'm not about to derail your welcome thread any more) that I absolutely disagree with the view that Cali (and many others) hold of mythology, i.e. that it is something that only belongs in the past, and which has somehow been superseded and 'trumped' by logic. Rather I would say that there are instances where mythic metaphors are much better descriptors of human experience, that they often have more resonance with us, like poetry and song.

Where I would agree with Cali and others is that certain statements in myths are not intended to be taken literally, and which is unfortunately the place where a lot of the clashes between religious and non-religious people arise.
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Re: Hi all

#52  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 15, 2013 8:37 am

Mythology has no place in a modern society. Its place is in books jut to be read as an interesting part of our history but further than that it has no importance.

I am sorry that you Nora require to use ancient terms to describe any human condition as there are plenty of modern more correct terms to replace them.
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Re: Hi all

#53  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 15, 2013 8:44 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:
Cali wrote:First, there is the matter of how the word "faith" is regarded here. I and numerous others contend that faith is nothing more than the treatment of unsupported assertions as purportedly consituting fact. As a corollary, I and others here dispense with it altogether. The behaviour of all too many supernaturalists in this regard is considered to be compelling evidence for this hypothesis.


And just to show you that not all of us think alike here (which makes you a very welcome addition), I and many other atheists don't restrict the word 'faith' in this limited way. I am not prepared to forsake the experience of faith, as in having an optimistic outlook. No matter how many times I might be badgered to do this, there are many words that I, as an atheist, feel are good descriptors of some of my own experience (another example being soul, which I use to describe something that touches—or involves—me on a very deep level).

Of course I wouldn't be so foolish to use them in a discussion here unless I was prepared to spend hours defining to the nub exactly what I meant.

And it goes without saying (as I'm not about to derail your welcome thread any more) that I absolutely disagree with the view that Cali (and many others) hold of mythology, i.e. that it is something that only belongs in the past, and which has somehow been superseded and 'trumped' by logic. Rather I would say that there are instances where mythic metaphors are much better descriptors of human experience, that they often have more resonance with us, like poetry and song.

Where I would agree with Cali and others is that certain statements in myths are not intended to be taken literally, and which is unfortunately the place where a lot of the clashes between religious and non-religious people arise.

I don't think Cali opposes mythology as a literary and expressive tool. Only as being regarded as truth.
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Re: Hi all

#54  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 15, 2013 8:46 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Mythology has no place in a modern society. Its place is in books jut to be read as an interesting part of our history but further than that it has no importance.


Which just goes to show that you have no real understanding of what mythology is. Way to prove my point. :cheers:
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Re: Hi all

#55  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 15, 2013 8:52 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Mythology has no place in a modern society. Its place is in books jut to be read as an interesting part of our history but further than that it has no importance.


Which just goes to show that you have no real understanding of what mythology is. Way to prove my point. :cheers:


I would say it is the other way round. Mythology are just assertions. No facts. You have no point. Using ancient terms to describe human situations just shows a lack of understanding what life is all about. Resorting to ancient assertions is clearly an exhibition of non-communicativeness.
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Re: Hi all

#56  Postby hackenslash » Sep 15, 2013 8:59 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:And it goes without saying (as I'm not about to derail your welcome thread any more) that I absolutely disagree with the view that Cali (and many others) hold of mythology, i.e. that it is something that only belongs in the past, and which has somehow been superseded and 'trumped' by logic.


Pretty sure Cali doesn't actually hold that view. Indeed, I would suggest that Cali, like myself, is of the opinion that mythology belongs right here and now, if for no other purpose than to serve as a warning against mental indolence.

Mythology is easy.

Welcome, Quaker. I'll be interested to see your interactions on the forum. :cheers:
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Re: Hi all

#57  Postby chairman bill » Sep 15, 2013 9:10 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:I would say it is the other way round. Mythology are just assertions. No facts. You have no point. Using ancient terms to describe human situations just shows a lack of understanding what life is all about. Resorting to ancient assertions is clearly an exhibition of non-communicativeness.


Bollocks. Myths aren't assertions, they're stories, presented as stories, but stories with (often) some grounding in truth, certainly grounding in human experience, and frequently with something interesting to say about the human condition.

Now, that isn't to say that there aren;t those who treat myths as factual, and make assertions grounded in myths, assertions that have no evidential support, & that often contradict reality, and to dismiss such idiocy is perfectly right & proper. However, to conflate the idiotic assertion of myth-as-fact with the idea that myths assert facts, is erroneous.

There's plenty of meaning to be found in myths, without descending into regarding myths as truthful representations of reality.
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Re: Hi all

#58  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 15, 2013 9:16 am

chairman bill wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:I would say it is the other way round. Mythology are just assertions. No facts. You have no point. Using ancient terms to describe human situations just shows a lack of understanding what life is all about. Resorting to ancient assertions is clearly an exhibition of non-communicativeness.


Bollocks. Myths aren't assertions, they're stories, presented as stories, but stories with (often) some grounding in truth, certainly grounding in human experience, and frequently with something interesting to say about the human condition.

Now, that isn't to say that there aren;t those who treat myths as factual, and make assertions grounded in myths, assertions that have no evidential support, & that often contradict reality, and to dismiss such idiocy is perfectly right & proper. However, to conflate the idiotic assertion of myth-as-fact with the idea that myths assert facts, is erroneous.

There's plenty of meaning to be found in myths, without descending into regarding myths as truthful representations of reality.


Now that is bollocks Bill. Just read what you have written. Myths grounded in truth? Let me see one please?

You are admitting that myths are assertions otherwise they would be facts. They cant be both?
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Re: Hi all

#59  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 15, 2013 9:23 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Myths grounded in truth? Let me see one please?
A very common metaphor that uses mythic imagery is "My life has been a real hell this year." This is shorthand for (to give one actual example from my experience of what a friend of mine went through): My husband has run off with a lesbian, my mother is dying, and as a result of the chemo I had when I nearly died of ovarian cancer I have to have both my hips replaced. This 'hell' was so 'real' for this friend of mine, when she told me about the double hip replacement I zoned out, I couldn't take any more of this hellish situation in.

For her, the statement "My live has been hell" was very much grounded in truth. It was a profoundly felt shorthand for the litany of things that was happening to her.
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Re: Hi all

#60  Postby chairman bill » Sep 15, 2013 9:42 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Now that is bollocks Bill. Just read what you have written. Myths grounded in truth? Let me see one please?

Well now, let's see what I actually said -
... stories with (often) some grounding in truth
And you want one? Well how about the siege of Troy? There was a city called Troy, and it was destroyed. How much more of the myth of Helen, Paris, Achilles et al is true, is anyone's guess, but the tale is almost certainly grounded in some truth.
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