40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#381  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 7:17 am

Perhaps if people felt a bit more free to criticise religion this scumbag/Breivik etc wouldn't have drawn arms.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#382  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Mar 29, 2019 7:19 am

Or perhaps not.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#383  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 7:24 am

What's that saying? "If you could reason with religious people there'd be no religious people" - well you're not even allowed in society writ large to appose their beliefs in conversation so no surprise they can't be reasoned with.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#384  Postby LucidFlight » Mar 29, 2019 7:26 am

If you're going to appose their beliefs, at least make sure it's with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#385  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 7:30 am

Keep It Real wrote:What's that saying? "If you could reason with religious people there'd be no religious people" - well you're not even allowed in society writ large to appose their beliefs in conversation so no surprise they can't be reasoned with.


The thing is, we as a society accommodate them. Freedom to believe, freedom to practice religion, freedom to discriminate between believers and non-believers.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#386  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 29, 2019 7:31 am

You two are only talking about your backward part of the woods.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#387  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 7:46 am

quas wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:What's that saying? "If you could reason with religious people there'd be no religious people" - well you're not even allowed in society writ large to appose their beliefs in conversation so no surprise they can't be reasoned with.


The thing is, we as a society accommodate them. Freedom to believe, freedom to practice religion, freedom to discriminate between believers and non-believers.


The recent mosque attacks in birmingham were being investigated by the "racial hatred" feds IIRC...since when was "Muslim" a race? Keeping up with the Joneewses, because everybody knows Judeism is hereditary through the mother right :doh:

No wonder you can't criticise people's race.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#388  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 7:58 am

Case in point:

Islamic Centre ATTACK: Group break into Newcastle centre and RIP UP Qurans - six arrested

“Although there is not the same racist graffiti as we saw in the first incident, we are treating this as a hate crime.


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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#389  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 8:07 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:You two are only talking about your backward part of the woods.


The basic premise of religion, if accepted, inevitably leads to intolerance and probably violence. This is assuming that the acceptor has the courage and intellectual integrity to follow his logical convictions. You have a belief in a god, and this god has given you a specific set of rules and instructions to live your life and how to worship him. His rules are not compatible with the rules of competing gods from other religions. Failure to comply with these rules, have severe repercussion not just in this life, but, more importantly, in the afterlife.

If, for example, you come to believe that your neighbour is a serial child killer, fearing for the safety of your own children, you'd notify the police to have him arrested. If the local authorities ignored your police reports, then you'd probably need to deal with this threat yourself. But your neighbour is not a serial child killer, he is of a different faith, which means there is a chance of him (or his family/kids) sermonizing to your kids leading them astray to worship his god. Could you allow him to live and thereby risking your kids' fate in the afterlife? That is a fate worse than being murdered. as the suffering of being killed is only temporary, while hellfire is eternal. It's a Sisyphean nightmare. Your kids would be murdered, then live again, only to be murdered again, so that they could continue reliving being tortured ad nauseaum.

There is no dissuading the believer, the existence of his god is not up for debate. We have to respect his right to believe, it's the polite thing to do.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#390  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 8:08 am

Keep It Real wrote:I remember the bit of TEOF where Harris points out that for some unknown reason religion and religious belief is "beyond criticism" whereas everything else is open for critical appraisal. I encounter this "special status" of religion all the time on the net, and of course poking criticism at someones religious conviction sin the flesh would be unthinkably rude. Or was it a bit in TGD thinking on...


Part of the blame lies on other religion. You can't criticise Islam, because Christianity doesn't want to be criticised. In countries with blasphemy laws, the minority religious group thinks blasphemy law is a necessity, even if it's the minorities who mostly, if not always, fall victim to the blasphemy laws.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#391  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 29, 2019 8:13 am

Religion plays no role here. Get it. Dont impose your frustrations onto people that never experienced it.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#392  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 8:17 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Religion plays no role here. Get it. Dont impose your frustrations onto people that never experienced it.


If you accept the existence of religion, you accept that there is going to be intolerance and violence towards the out-group of non-believers. If you accept that, you accept that there is going to be those who are probably going to violently oppose that.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#393  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 29, 2019 8:26 am

What a load of bollocks. You really are confused and paranoid. Religion does exist but for a small minority. They cant be intolerant as they have no standing. We dont have religion in our society or are we a violent society. What society do you live in?
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#394  Postby Svartalf » Mar 29, 2019 8:31 am

Keep It Real wrote:Perhaps if people felt a bit more free to criticise religion this scumbag/Breivik etc wouldn't have drawn arms.

What's the OP scumbag and Breivik have to do with religion or the ability to criticize it in society? Breivik at least was a total political psychopath, I'm not sure for the more recent case.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#395  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 29, 2019 8:35 am

quas wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:You two are only talking about your backward part of the woods.


The basic premise of religion, if accepted, inevitably leads to intolerance and probably violence. This is assuming that the acceptor has the courage and intellectual integrity to follow his logical convictions. You have a belief in a god, and this god has given you a specific set of rules and instructions to live your life and how to worship him. His rules are not compatible with the rules of competing gods from other religions. Failure to comply with these rules, have severe repercussion not just in this life, but, more importantly, in the afterlife.


I guess we atheists can consider ourselves lucky that you are an atheist, too. Any ideology, taken to extremes, leads to violence, as we've seen in what launched this thread, and there are plenty of those that are not theistic, at least on their face. Religion is really a much broader category than you let on, and you might want to consider using more precise language to state your case.

You never know, though. Given human tendencies, atheists, too, may fall to fighting hand to hand for ideological purity, too.

quas wrote:
If you accept the existence of religion, you accept that there is going to be intolerance and violence towards the out-group of non-believers. If you accept that, you accept that there is going to be those who are probably going to violently oppose that.


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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#396  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 8:42 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:They cant be intolerant as they have no standing. We dont have religion in our society or are we a violent society.


Sam 1:11 wrote:"Technology has a way of creating fresh moral imperatives. Our technical advances in the art of war have finally rendered our religious differences—and hence our religious beliefs—antithetical to our survival. We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom, or in the literal truth of the book of Revelation, or any of the other fantastical notions that have lurked in the minds of the faithful for millennia—because our neighbors are now armed with chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. There is no doubt that these developments mark the terminal phase of our credulity. Words like "God" and "Allah" must go the way of "Apollo" and "Baal," or they will unmake our world."
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#397  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 8:42 am

Svartalf wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Perhaps if people felt a bit more free to criticise religion this scumbag/Breivik etc wouldn't have drawn arms.

What's the OP scumbag and Breivik have to do with religion or the ability to criticize it in society? Breivik at least was a total political psychopath, I'm not sure for the more recent case.


Because if they'd felt able to openly attack religion verbally and in writing in their everyday lives, through whatever channels they pleased, without being arrested for "hate crimes," they might have felt they were being effective in achieving their objectives civilly and so they may not have chosen to act with bullets as they did.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#398  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 8:46 am

Never mind the fact that if people felt completely free to disrespect religion as much as they liked there probably wouldn't be much left so there would be no real target for the nutters.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#399  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 8:53 am

Cito di Pense wrote:I guess we atheists can consider ourselves lucky that you are an atheist, too. Any ideology, taken to extremes, leads to violence,


The perfect response to this mindlessly regurgitated bullshit? Take the ideology of Jainism, whose central tenet is non-violence. The fundamentalist extremist Jainist wears a mask, a cloth filter covering his mouth and nostrils, so that when he breathes, he doesn't accidentally inhale and kill the world's tiniest fly.

You never know, though. Given human tendencies, atheists, too, may fall to fighting hand to hand for ideological purity, too.

Because failure to comply leads to eternal hellfire?

Mark my words. Theism isn't the only evil. Ask some people, and they'll tell you capitalism is evil. If you know enough theology, you can try to prove that capitalism is foundationally theistic.

If you know enough words, you can try to prove that all discussions are pointless sophistry.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#400  Postby OlivierK » Mar 29, 2019 8:56 am

quas wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:You two are only talking about your backward part of the woods.


The basic premise of religion, if accepted, inevitably leads to intolerance and probably violence. This is assuming that the acceptor has the courage and intellectual integrity to follow his logical convictions. You have a belief in a god, and this god has given you a specific set of rules and instructions to live your life and how to worship him. His rules are not compatible with the rules of competing gods from other religions. Failure to comply with these rules, have severe repercussion not just in this life, but, more importantly, in the afterlife.

If, for example, you come to believe that your neighbour is a serial child killer, fearing for the safety of your own children, you'd notify the police to have him arrested. If the local authorities ignored your police reports, then you'd probably need to deal with this threat yourself. But your neighbour is not a serial child killer, he is of a different faith, which means there is a chance of him (or his family/kids) sermonizing to your kids leading them astray to worship his god. Could you allow him to live and thereby risking your kids' fate in the afterlife? That is a fate worse than being murdered. as the suffering of being killed is only temporary, while hellfire is eternal. It's a Sisyphean nightmare. Your kids would be murdered, then live again, only to be murdered again, so that they could continue reliving being tortured ad nauseaum.

There is no dissuading the believer, the existence of his god is not up for debate. We have to respect his right to believe, it's the polite thing to do.

Even if you could prove your assertion that religion probably leads to violence against out-groupers, you wouldn't have gone any of the distance towards an explanation of the incident under discussion. In Christchurch, the source of the violence wasn't the religious beliefs of the perpetrator, it was the sort of crass Islamophobia spouted by right-wing fuckwits in the perp's native Australia, and by people like you, here. If you want to talk about certain levels of intolerance leading to probable violence, then you should perhaps watch your step (by your own logic).

It seems that you're uncomfortable that someone has committed an atrocity in the name of an ideology that you hold, and are now engaged in furious whataboutism to make sure that all the creeds that didn't inspire this attack get painted just as dark as your own. Unless you have another reason for your copious off-topic ranting.
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