40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

in New Zealand...

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#461  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 04, 2019 6:19 pm

quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:The ideological intolerance you claim is intrinsic to Islam is really just intrinsic to societies that are not pluralistic enough, and civil laws that promote or even enshrine intolerance (such as blasphemy laws or laws that promote class distinctions) are just less obvious in more pluralistic societies.


So what does it say about religion, if the more pluralistic societies are the less religious ones?


There you go again with your chicken-egg problem:

Fallible wrote:
quas wrote:
That's not possible. If the world stops believing in god, that's only because all of us have become more rational and only accept evidence-based claims. Under what circumstance, could the world completely stop believing in god, and people still remained as irrational as before the eradication of religion?


Umm...under the circumstance where people continue to be born. You've got your chicken and egg order mixed up.


quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:If pluralism/liberalism is not the dominant impulse of humans, kiss humanity good-bye (and good riddance, if you ask me).


It's not. Pluralism/liberalism is a modern invention.


And I guess it's one you (and plenty of others) are only too happy to bin. In your case, as long as it means getting rid of one religion in particular, you can stick it to the ones you call libtards. They and the Muslims, messing up your day.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Al Forno, LLD,LDL,PPM
Posts: 29520
Age: 23
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#462  Postby OlivierK » Apr 04, 2019 9:23 pm

quas wrote:
OlivierK wrote:
quas wrote:Which is why I'm more pissed at libtards than any religious or white supremacist terrorist.

You want everyone to no longer give a fuck about religion, so you're more pissed at people who don't give a fuck what anyone believes, than you are at people who give so much of a fuck that they commit mass murder.

That's idiotic, insane, and immoral.

Learn to think.


If you twist & frame it that way, of course it sounds ridiculous. But I never said that. My contention is that a lot of non-Muslims are responsible for terrorism and intolerance (which is a much bigger problem than terrorism) of Muslims, because they have been permissive and even supportive towards the acceptance and thus existence of Islam.

Forgive me for not thinking that you've got any closer to a coherent position at the second attempt.

But humour me; what would you have liberals do to reduce intolerance of Muslims? What active steps should they take?
User avatar
OlivierK
 
Posts: 9822
Age: 54
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#463  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Apr 05, 2019 12:22 am

Thought control.
what a terrible image
User avatar
Rachel Bronwyn
 
Name: speaking moistly
Posts: 13470
Age: 32
Female

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#464  Postby quas » Apr 05, 2019 12:49 am

OlivierK wrote:But humour me; what would you have liberals do to reduce intolerance of Muslims? What active steps should they take?


When they say things like "Muslims are not terrorists and terrorism has no religion", they are contributing to social-acceptance of religion. Now, before my words get twisted again, understand this: I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorists, or all Muslims are intolerant even. All I'm saying is that if you accept Islam/religion's right to exist, then you accept the existence of the terrorists and the intolerant. And intolerance is a bigger problem than terrorism, because you know why? Social acceptance. If you are a terrorist, even in Muslim countries, the police will hunt you down. But masses protesting peacefully (by definition, death threats are peaceful, because threats do not constitute as violence) demanding a non-Muslim to be persecuted under false charges of blasphemy, then the police will be on the side of the masses. Sometimes, the police would be accepting (or turn a blind eye) towards violence committed by the intolerant (because that's not considered as terrorism!). Maybe it's because the police themselves are also Muslims, and thus empathetic with the intolerant.

Wikipedia wrote:Ahmadiyya had existed before Proclamation of Indonesian Independence.[citation needed] However, Ahmadiyya as a controversial religious minority in Indonesia has only risen sharply in the 2000s with a rise of Islamic fundamentalism. In 2008, many Muslims in Indonesia protested against the Ahmadiyya movement. With large demonstrations, these religious conservatives put pressure on the government to monitor and harass the Ahmadiyya community in Indonesia.

Public opinion in Indonesia is split into two major views on how Ahmadiyya should be treated:

Majority of Muslims throughout Indonesia hold that it should be banned outright on the basis that Ahmadiyah rejected the central tenet of Islam that Muhammad is the last messenger of God; furthermore, Ahmadis should not use Islam as their banner but should constitute their own recognised religion in order to ensure their freedom of religion in Indonesia
Some minorities including Ahmadis and numerous non-governmental organizations hold that Ahmadiyya should be free to act and say as it pleases under the banner of Islam in keeping with the Constitutional right of freedom of religion.
In June 2008, a law was passed to curtail "proselytising" by Ahmadiyya members.[147] An Ahmadiyya mosque was burned.[148] Human rights groups objected to the restrictions on religious freedom. On 6 February 2011 some Ahmadiyya members were killed at Pandeglang, Banten province.[149]

In the past few years there has been an increase in attacks on religious freedom, including incidents of physical abuse, preventing groups from performing prayers, and burning their mosques. Data from the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace show 17, 18, and 64 incidents for the years 2008, 2009 and 2010 respectively.[150] Although the data cover persecution of all religions, the recent persecution of Ahmadis is significant and severe, followed by persecution of Christians and persecution of other Islamic sects who claim to be "genuine/pure/fundamentalist Muslims".

As of 2011, the sect faces widespread calls for a total "ban" in Indonesia.[151] On 6 February 2011, hundreds of mainstream Muslims surrounded an Ahmadiyya household and beat three people to death. Footage of the bludgeoning of their naked bodies – while policeman looked on – was posted on the internet and subsequently broadcast on international media.[152]
Last edited by quas on Apr 05, 2019 1:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2793

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#465  Postby james1v » Apr 05, 2019 12:52 am

Any democratic country, would assign the NRA a terrorist organisation. Anyone with half a brain would... :coffee:
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
User avatar
james1v
 
Name: James.
Posts: 8948
Age: 62
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#466  Postby Hermit » Apr 05, 2019 1:11 am

quas wrote:Under what circumstance, could the world completely stop believing in god, and people still remained as irrational as before the eradication of religion?

Quas, in the real world the difference between theists and atheists is minimal. I reckon that if you simply ignored whether people are theists or atheists you would have great difficulties differentiating one group from another.

When people stop killing each other for god they keep killing each other for race, money, political ideology, jealousy and thousands of other reasons. Your confidence in an increase of rationality is misplaced.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4282
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#467  Postby proudfootz » Apr 05, 2019 1:12 am

Since accepting religion's right to exist is an endorsement of terrorism and intolerance, we'd better get busy attacking christians pronto!
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10969

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#468  Postby quas » Apr 05, 2019 1:15 am

Cito di Pense wrote:And I guess it's one you (and plenty of others) are only too happy to bin. In your case, as long as it means getting rid of one religion in particular, you can stick it to the ones you call libtards. They and the Muslims, messing up your day.


Just as I can't envision society getting rid of religion while still remaining irrational, I can't imagine society could get rid of Islam while still keeping religion (Christianity, Hinduism, etc) around. Islam is accepted as a religion, because religion is accepted. If you can be religious, then you can be a Muslim or a Christian or a Hindu. Where's the chicken/egg here, guys?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2793

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#469  Postby quas » Apr 05, 2019 1:30 am

Hermit wrote:When people stop killing each other for god they keep killing each other for race, money, political ideology, jealousy and thousands of other reasons. Your confidence in an increase of rationality is misplaced.


I am going to repeat this again. Killing people, or even just discriminating on others, based on their race or whatever ideology (those who blasphemously thinks strawberry is the best ice cream flavor) is generally frowned upon. All these crimes have a social-acceptance problem, because they are not committed in the name of religion. Thus, eliminating religion makes it harder for people to be unkind towards each other.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2793

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#470  Postby OlivierK » Apr 05, 2019 2:00 am

quas wrote:
OlivierK wrote:But humour me; what would you have liberals do to reduce intolerance of Muslims? What active steps should they take?


When they say things like "Muslims are not terrorists and terrorism has no religion", they are contributing to social-acceptance of religion. Now, before my words get twisted again, understand this: I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorists, or all Muslims are intolerant even. All I'm saying is that if you accept Islam/religion's right to exist, then you accept the existence of the terrorists and the intolerant. And intolerance is a bigger problem than terrorism, because you know why? Social acceptance. If you are a terrorist, even in Muslim countries, the police will hunt you down. But masses protesting peacefully (by definition, death threats are peaceful, because threats do not constitute as violence) demanding a non-Muslim to be persecuted under false charges of blasphemy, then the police will be on the side of the masses. Sometimes, the police would be accepting (or turn a blind eye) towards violence committed by the intolerant (because that's not considered as terrorism!). Maybe it's because the police themselves are also Muslims, and thus empathetic with the intolerant.

Wikipedia wrote:Ahmadiyya had existed before Proclamation of Indonesian Independence.[citation needed] However, Ahmadiyya as a controversial religious minority in Indonesia has only risen sharply in the 2000s with a rise of Islamic fundamentalism. In 2008, many Muslims in Indonesia protested against the Ahmadiyya movement. With large demonstrations, these religious conservatives put pressure on the government to monitor and harass the Ahmadiyya community in Indonesia.

Public opinion in Indonesia is split into two major views on how Ahmadiyya should be treated:

Majority of Muslims throughout Indonesia hold that it should be banned outright on the basis that Ahmadiyah rejected the central tenet of Islam that Muhammad is the last messenger of God; furthermore, Ahmadis should not use Islam as their banner but should constitute their own recognised religion in order to ensure their freedom of religion in Indonesia
Some minorities including Ahmadis and numerous non-governmental organizations hold that Ahmadiyya should be free to act and say as it pleases under the banner of Islam in keeping with the Constitutional right of freedom of religion.
In June 2008, a law was passed to curtail "proselytising" by Ahmadiyya members.[147] An Ahmadiyya mosque was burned.[148] Human rights groups objected to the restrictions on religious freedom. On 6 February 2011 some Ahmadiyya members were killed at Pandeglang, Banten province.[149]

In the past few years there has been an increase in attacks on religious freedom, including incidents of physical abuse, preventing groups from performing prayers, and burning their mosques. Data from the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace show 17, 18, and 64 incidents for the years 2008, 2009 and 2010 respectively.[150] Although the data cover persecution of all religions, the recent persecution of Ahmadis is significant and severe, followed by persecution of Christians and persecution of other Islamic sects who claim to be "genuine/pure/fundamentalist Muslims".

As of 2011, the sect faces widespread calls for a total "ban" in Indonesia.[151] On 6 February 2011, hundreds of mainstream Muslims surrounded an Ahmadiyya household and beat three people to death. Footage of the bludgeoning of their naked bodies – while policeman looked on – was posted on the internet and subsequently broadcast on international media.[152]

OK, cool. I asked you what liberals should do to reduce intolerance against Muslims, and you've told me one more time what you think they shouldn't do (ie. accept Islam's right to exist). So instead of enabling intolerance, on the grounds that intolerance is superbad, you'd have liberals express intolerance. And that would be progress how, exactly? How would you avoid that intolerance leading to more Christchurches, in the way that you claim that Islam's intolerance leads to Islam-inspired violence?
User avatar
OlivierK
 
Posts: 9822
Age: 54
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#471  Postby OlivierK » Apr 05, 2019 2:07 am

And by the way. This:
quas wrote:And intolerance is a bigger problem than terrorism, because you know why? Social acceptance.

makes you sound like a recruiting sergeant for liberalism.

When you then go on to advocate intolerance of Islam, you're not only being incoherent, you're calling your own position worse than terrorism. Regardless of what I think of your position's lack of merit, even I wouldn't go that far.
User avatar
OlivierK
 
Posts: 9822
Age: 54
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#472  Postby Hermit » Apr 05, 2019 2:11 am

quas wrote:
Hermit wrote:When people stop killing each other for god they keep killing each other for race, money, political ideology, jealousy and thousands of other reasons. Your confidence in an increase of rationality is misplaced.

I am going to repeat this again. Killing people, or even just discriminating on others, based on their race or whatever ideology (those who blasphemously thinks strawberry is the best ice cream flavor) is generally frowned upon. All these crimes have a social-acceptance problem, because they are not committed in the name of religion. Thus, eliminating religion makes it harder for people to be unkind towards each other.

Are you perchance arguing that crimes perpetrated for religious reasons are not generally frowned upon? :scratch:
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4282
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#473  Postby Macdoc » Apr 05, 2019 2:58 am

too often given a pass ....see catholic priests et
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17156
Age: 73
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#474  Postby quas » Apr 05, 2019 3:06 am

Hermit wrote:Are you perchance arguing that crimes perpetrated for religious reasons are not generally frowned upon? :scratch:


Yes, intolerance, and violence arising from said intolerance, committed under the name of religion are more socially-accepted than intolerance and violence committed for any other reason. The degree of social acceptance is directly proportional to how religious a society is. Open discrimination towards fans of strawberry ice cream is not as popular/socially-accepted (even in religious societies highly intolerant of gay and pink stuff).
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2793

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#475  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 05, 2019 3:08 am

quas wrote:
I am going to repeat this again. Killing people or even just discriminating on others based on their race or whatever ideology ( those who blasphemously thinks strawberry is the best ice cream flavor ) is generally frowned upon. All these crimes have a social acceptance problem because they are not committed in the name of religion. Thus eliminating religion makes it harder for people to be unkind towards each other

Crimes committed in the name of religion may be more socially acceptable to some of its members but not generally so
Religion cannot be eliminated and even if it could it would have precisely zero effect on the dark side of human nature
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
 
Posts: 10195

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#476  Postby quas » Apr 05, 2019 3:13 am

OlivierK wrote:And by the way. This:
quas wrote:And intolerance is a bigger problem than terrorism, because you know why? Social acceptance.

makes you sound like a recruiting sergeant for liberalism.

When you then go on to advocate intolerance of Islam, you're not only being incoherent, you're calling your own position worse than terrorism. Regardless of what I think of your position's lack of merit, even I wouldn't go that far.


You seriously can't distinguish between militant atheism's intolerance of religion and religious intolerance of non-believers? Let's make this easy for you. Militant atheism does not call for discrimination, hatred, persecution and violence towards religious people.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2793

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#477  Postby Hermit » Apr 05, 2019 3:29 am

quas wrote:
Hermit wrote:Are you perchance arguing that crimes perpetrated for religious reasons are not generally frowned upon? :scratch:

Yes, intolerance, and violence arising from said intolerance, committed under the name of religion are more socially-accepted than intolerance and violence committed for any other reason. The degree of social acceptance is directly proportional to how religious a society is. Open discrimination towards fans of strawberry ice cream is not as popular/socially-accepted (even in religious societies highly intolerant of gay and pink stuff).


Macdoc wrote:too often given a pass ....see catholic priests et

Cardinal Pell will be very pleased to hear that. So will Father Risdon on the other clerics that finished up in the clink.

I can't see the general population ignoring, disbelieving or letting crimes slide because they were religiously motivated or perpetrated on account of religious some perceived privilege. Not any more. Not in Australia. YMMV.

What I would like to see, is the removal of the confessional privilege. Priest who do not expeditiously report crime confessed to in the sin box should receive the same sentence as the perpetrator who confessed. And so should the Pope, for he insists on maintaining that privilege.

What I would also like to see is the abolition of the tax free status of all religions and an end to government funded subsidies to denominational schools.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
User avatar
Hermit
 
Name: Cantankerous grump
Posts: 4282
Age: 67
Male

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#478  Postby OlivierK » Apr 05, 2019 6:18 am

quas wrote:
OlivierK wrote:And by the way. This:
quas wrote:And intolerance is a bigger problem than terrorism, because you know why? Social acceptance.

makes you sound like a recruiting sergeant for liberalism.

When you then go on to advocate intolerance of Islam, you're not only being incoherent, you're calling your own position worse than terrorism. Regardless of what I think of your position's lack of merit, even I wouldn't go that far.


You seriously can't distinguish between militant atheism's intolerance of religion and religious intolerance of non-believers? Let's make this easy for you. Militant atheism does not call for discrimination, hatred, persecution and violence towards religious people.

Well, some militant atheists apparently think that anti-religious mass murder is less troublesome than secular liberalism, so I've got to wonder.

But lets just take you at your word that you're all live and let live when it comes to followers of religions - a real stand up non-discriminator and non-persecutor, but you just want religion kept out of the sphere of public influence and kept separate from the state. Explain to me how that's not the liberal position that you hurl insults against?

How exactly do you propose to eradicate religion? You sound like you're just advocating for a mirror image of the blasphemy laws you despise. Those guys think non-belief shouldn't exist, and should be eradicated. You sound just like them.
User avatar
OlivierK
 
Posts: 9822
Age: 54
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#479  Postby quas » Apr 05, 2019 6:44 am

OlivierK wrote:Well, some militant atheists apparently think that anti-religious mass murder is less troublesome than secular liberalism, so I've got to wonder.

Religious -and anti-religious- violence is a necessary evil in a pluralistic society that tolerates the existence of religion. Our governments have accepted that a few casualties (due to religious violence) here and there is just cost of doing business, even if they always make a show about condemning terrorism and intolerance. Are you genuinely concerned for the well-being of humanity or do you share the values of our politicians?

But lets just take you at your word that you're all live and let live when it comes to followers of religions - a real stand up non-discriminator and non-persecutor, but you just want religion kept out of the sphere of public influence and kept separate from the state. Explain to me how that's not the liberal position that you hurl insults against?

I don't propagate the social-acceptance of religion.

How exactly do you propose to eradicate religion? You sound like you're just advocating for a mirror image of the blasphemy laws you despise. Those guys think non-belief shouldn't exist, and should be eradicated. You sound just like them.

Take away social-acceptance. The religious ones have done that. By promoting the social-acceptance of religion, they have also promoted the social-acceptance of opposing those critical of religion. They have managed to convince that Islamaphobia exists, and they have successfully brainwashed the libtards to be their useful idiots.
Last edited by quas on Apr 05, 2019 7:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
User avatar
quas
 
Posts: 2793

Print view this post

Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#480  Postby Fallible » Apr 05, 2019 6:48 am

:roll:
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest