40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#401  Postby aban57 » Mar 29, 2019 9:01 am

OlivierK wrote:
quas wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:You two are only talking about your backward part of the woods.


The basic premise of religion, if accepted, inevitably leads to intolerance and probably violence. This is assuming that the acceptor has the courage and intellectual integrity to follow his logical convictions. You have a belief in a god, and this god has given you a specific set of rules and instructions to live your life and how to worship him. His rules are not compatible with the rules of competing gods from other religions. Failure to comply with these rules, have severe repercussion not just in this life, but, more importantly, in the afterlife.

If, for example, you come to believe that your neighbour is a serial child killer, fearing for the safety of your own children, you'd notify the police to have him arrested. If the local authorities ignored your police reports, then you'd probably need to deal with this threat yourself. But your neighbour is not a serial child killer, he is of a different faith, which means there is a chance of him (or his family/kids) sermonizing to your kids leading them astray to worship his god. Could you allow him to live and thereby risking your kids' fate in the afterlife? That is a fate worse than being murdered. as the suffering of being killed is only temporary, while hellfire is eternal. It's a Sisyphean nightmare. Your kids would be murdered, then live again, only to be murdered again, so that they could continue reliving being tortured ad nauseaum.

There is no dissuading the believer, the existence of his god is not up for debate. We have to respect his right to believe, it's the polite thing to do.

Even if you could prove your assertion that religion probably leads to violence against out-groupers, you wouldn't have gone any of the distance towards an explanation of the incident under discussion. In Christchurch, the source of the violence wasn't the religious beliefs of the perpetrator, it was the sort of crass Islamophobia spouted by right-wing fuckwits in the perp's native Australia, and by people like you, here. If you want to talk about certain levels of intolerance leading to probable violence, then you should perhaps watch your step (by your own logic).

It seems that you're uncomfortable that someone has committed an atrocity in the name of an ideology that you hold, and are now engaged in furious whataboutism to make sure that all the creeds that didn't inspire this attack get painted just as dark as your own. Unless you have another reason for your copious off-topic ranting.


You haven't read Sam Harris, have you ? :roll:
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#402  Postby OlivierK » Mar 29, 2019 9:16 am

It's true that, as I find him tiresome, it's been a while since I read any Harris (pbuh).

Keep It Real wrote:Perhaps if people felt a bit more free to criticise religion this scumbag/Breivik etc wouldn't have drawn arms.

Dunno about that. In Australia, the home country of the Christchurch perpetrator, people freely criticise religion, usually as an irrelevance that best kept personal. The exception is that, with a Murdoch-dominated press, criticism of Islam is given plenty of run, often in hateful terms. I'm far from convinced that people feeling even more free to indulge in ignorant anti-Muslim rhetoric would have helped turn the Christchurch perpetrator from violence, and indeed would be more likely to radicalise more scum in his mould.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#403  Postby Fenrir » Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am

OlivierK wrote:It's true that, as I find him tiresome, it's been a while since I read any Harris (pbuh).

Keep It Real wrote:Perhaps if people felt a bit more free to criticise religion this scumbag/Breivik etc wouldn't have drawn arms.

Dunno about that. In Australia, the home country of the Christchurch perpetrator, people freely criticise religion, usually as an irrelevance that best kept personal. The exception is that, with a Murdoch-dominated press, criticism of Islam is given plenty of run, often in hateful terms. I'm far from convinced that people feeling even more free to indulge in ignorant anti-Muslim rhetoric would have helped turn the Christchurch perpetrator from violence, and indeed would be more likely to radicalise more scum in his mould.


Well there's your problem. Most of the media criticism (it seems to me) is anti-muslim, not anti-islam. That they can say the one while meaning the other with little push-back is an indication of how debate has been distorted in favour of dog-whistle xenophobia imo.

Mind you Brunei is trying hard to match the rhetoric.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#404  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 9:37 am

OlivierK wrote:Even if you could prove your assertion that religion probably leads to violence against out-groupers, you wouldn't have gone any of the distance towards an explanation of the incident under discussion. In Christchurch, the source of the violence wasn't the religious beliefs of the perpetrator, it was the sort of crass Islamophobia spouted by right-wing fuckwits in the perp's native Australia, and by people like you, here. If you want to talk about certain levels of intolerance leading to probable violence, then you should perhaps watch your step (by your own logic).


Just because right-wing/white supremacist groups may have exploited valid criticism of Islam for their own political benefits, doesn't make valid criticism any less valid. Besides, even if valid criticism of religion didn't exist, those supremacist nutjobs are perfectly capable of intolerance and violence anyway. Because you know why? Even if you could shut me up, we would have no shortage of religious violence, thanks to society being filled with people like you perfectly accepting of Islam. And that's already pretty much happening right now, since my kind has always been a minority dissenting voice. They say the definition of insanity is repeating the same action, and expecting a different result. So maybe, instead of further attempts to drown out my voice, you should try something different for a change?
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those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#405  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 29, 2019 9:49 am

quas wrote:my kind has always been a minority dissenting voice.


Your kind, quas? Your kind hangs out in internet chat-rooms haranguing those who don't see things your way. Don't flatter yourself that you're any kind of threat to anyone's peace of mind.

quas wrote:Even if you could shut me up


Is anyone trying to shut you up? After you've metronomically posted your rant a hundred times or more?

quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:You never know, though. Given human tendencies, atheists, too, may fall to fighting hand to hand for ideological purity, too.

Because failure to comply leads to eternal hellfire?


Failure to comply? What is it you'd like me to comply with? You're not so spooked by supernatural beliefs that you think they're more than excuses, are you?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#406  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 10:00 am

Fenrir wrote:Most of the media criticism (it seems to me) is anti-muslim, not anti-islam. That they can say the one while meaning the other with little push-back is an indication of how debate has been distorted in favour of dog-whistle xenophobia imo.


G'day Fenrir, soooo :this:

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 (c. 1) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which creates an offence in England and Wales of inciting hatred against a person on the grounds of their religion...

The bill contains wording to amend the Public Order Act 1986:

Section 29A Meaning of "religious hatred"
In this Part "religious hatred" means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief.

Section 29B:
(1) A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred.


So in fact overt hate speech directed at Islam is not illegal AFAIKT, but against Muslims, now that's a different kettle of fish. Confusing religion and race is a problem here I think too, in that if Islam is an immutable genetic features it of course cannot be separated from Muslims. Much as I'm reluctant to draw a pearl from religion - hate the sin, not the sinner, and you're in the clear as far as the law goes it seems. Not talking about Brunei of course.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#407  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 10:51 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
quas wrote:my kind has always been a minority dissenting voice.


Your kind, quas? Your kind hangs out in internet chat-rooms haranguing those who don't see things your way. Don't flatter yourself that you're any kind of threat to anyone's peace of mind.

If I'm not a threat to your peace of mind, then how is it that you're accusing me of haranguing you?


Is anyone trying to shut you up? After you've metronomically posted your rant a hundred times or more?

Maybe. It's certainly possible to interpret it that way. But so what? This is an internet forum, no point taking things personally. I just point out how pointless that would be, since I've always been sort of silenced/drowned out anyway.

Failure to comply? What is it you'd like me to comply with? You're not so spooked by supernatural beliefs that you think they're more than excuses, are you?

That's the point! Without eternal damnation for not complying, why would anyone bother to "fight hand to hand for ideological purity"?
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#408  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 29, 2019 11:23 am

quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Failure to comply? What is it you'd like me to comply with? You're not so spooked by supernatural beliefs that you think they're more than excuses, are you?

That's the point! Without eternal damnation for not complying, why would anyone bother to "fight hand to hand for ideological purity"?


If you don't know, quas, I don't either. The Soviets, who were nominally atheist, fought a bit about ideological purity. I guess it happened in Kampuchea, too, and places like that. This is the kind of evidence I cite that theistic motivations are not the only ones behind fighting for ideological purity. As for the evidence you cite, you claim supernatural motivations are present, and I claim those are just excuses, since the burden isn't on me to prove that they're anything more than excuses. Are Nazi Party members and sympathizers motivated by religious symbolism?

It's not that I don't think religion is a pain in the arse. I'm perhaps just not as spooked by 'demands for compliance' as you are. You live someplace, or so I've heard, where all your anti-religious opinions need to be kept private. If what's driving your rant is only the pressure you feel because you can't express yourself freely, I'm sorry you're in that situation. Were I in the same bind, I wouldn't be blowing off steam in internet chat-rooms, because that's just me feeling sorry for myself. I have no idea of the other dimensions of your situation. If you have employment that affords you a good living, I can understand why you might not seek asylum beyond the borders within which you feel so oppressed.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#409  Postby zulumoose » Mar 29, 2019 11:55 am

This business with race/IQ is clearly a massive blunder of his which will do his rep no end of harm and is a real shame.


I have seen many attempts to peddle the IQ related race stuff, and whether there is a grain of truth in it or not, it is, as you say, so outweighed by other factors that is it very poor judgement to even bring it up. The only guarantee is that you will lose credibility by pursuing it.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#410  Postby quas » Mar 29, 2019 12:03 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:If you don't know, quas, I don't either. The Soviets, who were nominally atheist, fought a bit about ideological purity. I guess it happened in Kampuchea, too, and places like that. This is the kind of evidence I cite that theistic motivations are not the only ones behind fighting for ideological purity. As for the evidence you cite, you claim supernatural motivations are present, and I claim those are just excuses, since the burden isn't on me to prove that they're anything more than excuses. Are Nazi Party members and sympathizers motivated by religious symbolism?


Supernatural motivations are so potent because they are not debatable. Someone declares that as truth, you just have to have accept. Commies like the Soviets, the Chinese, or the North Koreans even. And the Nazis too. What do they all have in common with religion? They have set up rigid structures of power hierarchy that's immune from criticism. What's the atheistic equivalent of that?

Tangent:
Don't just unthinkingly spout nonsense like "religion isn't the problem, fundamentalism is", when we know for a fact that fundamentalism is the problem only because the fundamentals are. The fundamentalist Jains are never a problem for anyone.

It's not that I don't think religion is a pain in the arse. I'm perhaps just not as spooked by 'demands for compliance' as you are. You live someplace, or so I've heard, where all your anti-religious opinions need to be kept private.

It needs to be let out, the world needs to know what I've witnessed. Imagine! An entire country of 200 million people being held hostage, and not a single bullet was involved. And people were outraged because a nutcase with lots of bullets managed to kill only 40 people?

Were I in the same bind, I wouldn't be blowing off steam in internet chat-rooms, because that's just me feeling sorry for myself.

I'm not in this to blow off steam. I've decided that finally the absurdity, madness and horrors made possible by widespread social-acceptance of religion has to end. Which is why I'm more pissed at libtards than any religious or white supremacist terrorist.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem
those who think alike than those who think differently. -Nietzsche
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#411  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 12:23 pm

quas wrote:I've decided that finally the absurdity, madness and horrors made possible by widespread social-acceptance of religion has to end.


I applaud your decision. Might not happen in our lifetimes but you know what they say, shoot for the stars. :clap:

quas wrote:Which is why I'm more pissed at libtards than any religious or white supremacist terrorist.


Nope, disagree with you there. Live and let live (liptard dogma rule #1) is preferable in my book to any lethal act of terrorism. It's all about working out how to extirpate religion with the "pen" IMO, which is, afterall, mightier than the sword, I'm lead to believe :nod:

Been daydreaming of having the guts to wear a T-shirt saying "I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam" (that one's for Monday, on Tuesday it's the turn of Christians/Christianity etc) - those T-shirts would be designed using a pen, of course.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#412  Postby zulumoose » Mar 29, 2019 12:30 pm

I've decided that finally the absurdity, madness and horrors made possible by widespread social-acceptance of religion has to end. Which is why I'm more pissed at libtards than any religious or white supremacist terrorist.


The way religion is going to die is when it gets through to the youth that advances in society that benefit everyone as it becomes more liberal, are in spite of religion, not because of it. When you can look back and realise the reason it took so long to get rid of discredited beliefs is that they were propped up by religious beliefs, then you are making progress.
Conservative viewpoints hinder progress and prop up both religion, and the conflicts between religions.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#413  Postby Keep It Real » Mar 29, 2019 12:32 pm

zulumoose wrote:
This business with race/IQ is clearly a massive blunder of his which will do his rep no end of harm and is a real shame.


I have seen many attempts to peddle the IQ related race stuff, and whether there is a grain of truth in it or not, it is, as you say, so outweighed by other factors that is it very poor judgement to even bring it up. The only guarantee is that you will lose credibility by pursuing it.


It's really quite inexplicable that Harris would align himself with this tosh isn't it? Surely there will be some form of retraction soon :dunno: :crazy:
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#414  Postby OlivierK » Mar 29, 2019 12:53 pm

quas wrote:Which is why I'm more pissed at libtards than any religious or white supremacist terrorist.

You want everyone to no longer give a fuck about religion, so you're more pissed at people who don't give a fuck what anyone believes, than you are at people who give so much of a fuck that they commit mass murder.

That's idiotic, insane, and immoral.

Learn to think.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#415  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 29, 2019 1:10 pm

quas wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:If you don't know, quas, I don't either. The Soviets, who were nominally atheist, fought a bit about ideological purity. I guess it happened in Kampuchea, too, and places like that. This is the kind of evidence I cite that theistic motivations are not the only ones behind fighting for ideological purity. As for the evidence you cite, you claim supernatural motivations are present, and I claim those are just excuses, since the burden isn't on me to prove that they're anything more than excuses. Are Nazi Party members and sympathizers motivated by religious symbolism?


Supernatural motivations are so potent because they are not debatable. Someone declares that as truth, you just have to have accept. Commies like the Soviets, the Chinese, or the North Koreans even. And the Nazis too. What do they all have in common with religion? They have set up rigid structures of power hierarchy that's immune from criticism. What's the atheistic equivalent of that?


Exactly what you purport to be selling.

quas wrote:It needs to be let out, the world needs to know what I've witnessed.


A veritable secular saint-in-the-making, you are. Let me fetch your robe and crown.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#416  Postby tuco » Mar 29, 2019 1:16 pm

Communists fought for ideological purity? What book is that from? I thought they fought for power.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#417  Postby proudfootz » Mar 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
zulumoose wrote:
This business with race/IQ is clearly a massive blunder of his which will do his rep no end of harm and is a real shame.


I have seen many attempts to peddle the IQ related race stuff, and whether there is a grain of truth in it or not, it is, as you say, so outweighed by other factors that is it very poor judgement to even bring it up. The only guarantee is that you will lose credibility by pursuing it.


It's really quite inexplicable that Harris would align himself with this tosh isn't it? Surely there will be some form of retraction soon :dunno: :crazy:


I doubt Harris will retreat, retract, or apologise for this sort of nonsense - it's part and parcel of the whole reactionary gravy train.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#418  Postby Svartalf » Mar 29, 2019 2:06 pm

tuco wrote:Communists fought for ideological purity? What book is that from? I thought they fought for power.

well, ideological purity is the source of power, fighting for the one entails getting the other, plus, troops from bankrupt ideologies lack the backbone to fight efficiently.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#419  Postby tuco » Mar 29, 2019 2:17 pm

I honestly do not know what ... ideological purity .. means. Though I dont really care to know because it would be very hard to convince me that humans, for rare exceptions, are willing to die for any purity. For power, resources, or mating opportunities, sure.
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Re: 40 deaths in right wing terrorist attack

#420  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 29, 2019 2:33 pm

tuco wrote:I honestly do not know what ... ideological purity .. means. Though I dont really care to know because it would be very hard to convince me that humans, for rare exceptions, are willing to die for any purity. For power, resources, or mating opportunities, sure.


It's a good question, tuco. It's not as if most of us can pretend that IdeologicalPurity™ exists, at least not in such a way that you can find it in some place like your grocer's dairy-case (Laktos-frei!). Think of it more as an excuse for something else. That might be an excuse for adopting very rigid dietary rules, or something. That is not to make fun of lactose intolerance, which is no joke. Taken to extremes, rational skepticism can be a search for ideological purity... Dying for it? I don't know. People can get themselves into pickles they can't get themselves out of, like a cat chasing a squirrel up a tree, and so they nominate some Salvation for themselves, and often personify it.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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