Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

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Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#1  Postby DoctorE » Apr 12, 2012 8:18 pm

Crosses != Religious symbol or nuthing..

Planted atop a remote hill in the middle of California's Camp Pendleton Marine Corps Base rests two 13-foot crosses.

Originally erected back in 2003 by seven marines grieving over lives lost in the war on terror, this site originally established for reflection has now become grounds for controversy.

“It's not a religious spot at all, it's a place for the Marines to grieve and to grow to let go of their burdens of what they had in their soul, so they can go back down that hill and back into battle and put their own lives on the line,” says Marine widow Karen Mendoza.

Her husband Ray was one of those original seven who climbed the hill that day, three of whom have since been killed in action, including Ray.

“It's a symbol of sacrifice regardless of what you think, pray, like or don't like,” says Karen.

Over time the site has become a bit more permanent. A wildfire destroyed the original cross a few years back, so Marines and widows carried these two new versions up the hill.

Continues: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/12/ma ... oups-seek/
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#2  Postby Weaver » Apr 12, 2012 8:20 pm

Yeah, not a religious symbol at all.
That's why the camp Chaplains so regularly lead up groups to pray at the site.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#3  Postby orpheus » Apr 12, 2012 9:29 pm

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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#4  Postby willhud9 » Apr 12, 2012 10:18 pm

:facepalm:

Who cares? I get it, it may not be 100% legal. I give you that. But really? Let me ask this one question: why does it bother anyone?
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#5  Postby orpheus » Apr 12, 2012 11:32 pm

willhud9 wrote::facepalm:

Who cares? I get it, it may not be 100% legal. I give you that. But really? Let me ask this one question: why does it bother anyone?


Because it's 100% illegal. And it's an important issue. And ruling that it's ok would set a precedent. And it's a contentious issue, so such a precedent would be dangerous.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#6  Postby willhud9 » Apr 12, 2012 11:42 pm

orpheus wrote:
willhud9 wrote::facepalm:

Who cares? I get it, it may not be 100% legal. I give you that. But really? Let me ask this one question: why does it bother anyone?


Because it's 100% illegal. And it's an important issue. And ruling that it's ok would set a precedent. And it's a contentious issue, so such a precedent would be dangerous.


Why is it illegal? Because some people get offended and outraged at a symbol used in western culture as a sign of memorial as well as a religion? It does not establish religion, prevent another religion from erecting a memorial, or prevent someone from worshiping whatever they believe on the base. It was created as a memorial for lost ones. From the article it doesn't even sound like the crosses are blatantly in any one's way or are even funded and cared for by US taxpayers, but rather a small private party of soldiers and soldier wives. 3,000 foot hike up the mountain. I could see if this was the marine base itself erecting this, I could see if this was US taxpayer money doing this, but the only major thing is this is "on" a military base. So I guess the establishment clause beats out the free exercise clause for some reason? This is not government sponsored so it cannot be the establishment clause.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#7  Postby orpheus » Apr 12, 2012 11:49 pm

willhud9 wrote:
orpheus wrote:
willhud9 wrote::facepalm:

Who cares? I get it, it may not be 100% legal. I give you that. But really? Let me ask this one question: why does it bother anyone?


Because it's 100% illegal. And it's an important issue. And ruling that it's ok would set a precedent. And it's a contentious issue, so such a precedent would be dangerous.


Why is it illegal? Because some people get offended and outraged at a symbol used in western culture as a sign of memorial as well as a religion? It does not establish religion, prevent another religion from erecting a memorial, or prevent someone from worshiping whatever they believe on the base. It was created as a memorial for lost ones. From the article it doesn't even sound like the crosses are blatantly in any one's way or are even funded and cared for by US taxpayers, but rather a small private party of soldiers and soldier wives. 3,000 foot hike up the mountain. I could see if this was the marine base itself erecting this, I could see if this was US taxpayer money doing this, but the only major thing is this is "on" a military base. So I guess the establishment clause beats out the free exercise clause for some reason? This is not government sponsored so it cannot be the establishment clause.


In which case crosses should be allowed to decorate public courthouses or schools as long as they are paid for by private citizens?
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#8  Postby willhud9 » Apr 12, 2012 11:50 pm

Or if their function is not religious, but rather memorial. :dunno:
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#9  Postby orpheus » Apr 12, 2012 11:54 pm

willhud9 wrote:Or if their function is not religious, but rather memorial. :dunno:


Ok, a nice huge bronze cross affixed to the wall above a judge's bench in a state courthouse - funded by private citizens and intended as a memorial.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#10  Postby willhud9 » Apr 13, 2012 12:04 am

orpheus wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Or if their function is not religious, but rather memorial. :dunno:


Ok, a nice huge bronze cross affixed to the wall above a judge's bench in a state courthouse - funded by private citizens and intended as a memorial.


A memorial for what? Judges who have died? The point is the crosses here WERE erected as a memorial in an outlying part of the base. A memorial for friends and family on that base who have died in the war on terror. Unless the memorial is illegal which than my argument is moot. But if it's not, then I see no reason why a cross changes the memorial. There are crosses used on memorials across graveyards across the country.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#11  Postby Weaver » Apr 13, 2012 12:35 am

willhud9 wrote::facepalm:

Who cares? I get it, it may not be 100% legal. I give you that. But really? Let me ask this one question: why does it bother anyone?

Because it is yet another fucking illegal government-endorsed display of religion, that's why.

Because entire units are marched up to it for mandatory illegal religious observances, that's why.

And because it's just plain wrong, that's why.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#12  Postby Weaver » Apr 13, 2012 12:42 am

http://blog.militaryatheists.org/2011/1 ... hristians/

Some point out that whole units have been marched up to the cross by their commanders. Two videos show a long hike to install the cross and one unit commander inviting his Sergeant Major to give a Christian prayer to a mandatory formation under this cross. Marine commanders have forced their troops into a pilgrimage to a Christian cross?!? This deserves a separate investigation by itself.
Jay Sekulow at the Christian ACLJ says the cross isn’t Christian. A billion Christians worship the cross as a symbol of their most deeply-held beliefs, so I’ll let them object to the ACLJ. Dave Niose in Psychology Today questions the casting of the cross as a secular icon. Attorney Randall Hamud San Diego more accurately lays out the legal challenges to the federal installation of a religious symbol. If this was solely about honoring fallen brothers, why confuse the message with an obvious and unmistakable religious symbol?
The example of cemetery crosses is also often brought up. These cases are entirely different as they represent the wishes of the individual buried in that plot. MAAF absolutely supports religious emblems on federal cemetery grave markers.
(The site above contains links that should be viewed - mandatory unit prayers making it quite clear that those saying this isn't an officially endorsed religious site are lying.)
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#13  Postby orpheus » Apr 13, 2012 12:44 am

willhud9 wrote:
orpheus wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Or if their function is not religious, but rather memorial. :dunno:


Ok, a nice huge bronze cross affixed to the wall above a judge's bench in a state courthouse - funded by private citizens and intended as a memorial.


A memorial for what? Judges who have died? The point is the crosses here WERE erected as a memorial in an outlying part of the base. A memorial for friends and family on that base who have died in the war on terror. Unless the memorial is illegal which than my argument is moot. But if it's not, then I see no reason why a cross changes the memorial. There are crosses used on memorials across graveyards across the country.


Plenty of people could be "legitimately" memorialized by such a hypothetical cross. If the courthouse is in downtown Manhattan (as most of the NYC government buildings are), then even more, because of 9/11.

The point remains: what's the difference?
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#14  Postby DougC » Apr 13, 2012 1:36 am


Originally erected back in 2003 by seven marines grieving over lives lost in the war on terror, this site originally established for reflection has now become grounds for controversy.

Then, would not a Mosque have been more appropriate?
It would still cause controversy.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#15  Postby MacIver » Apr 13, 2012 1:47 am

I saw this on Faux News today, I thought that maybe it was a bit inappropriate but at the same time knowing that the story would likely be biased.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#16  Postby Onyx8 » Apr 13, 2012 3:56 am

Oh ffs, it's only the federal government breaking the law a little bit, why get upset?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#17  Postby CRasch » Apr 13, 2012 5:52 am

Another cross erected on government own land in San Diego County. You think two big ones would be enough.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#18  Postby CRasch » Apr 13, 2012 5:55 am

willhud9 wrote:
orpheus wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Or if their function is not religious, but rather memorial. :dunno:


Ok, a nice huge bronze cross affixed to the wall above a judge's bench in a state courthouse - funded by private citizens and intended as a memorial.


A memorial for what? Judges who have died? The point is the crosses here WERE erected as a memorial in an outlying part of the base. A memorial for friends and family on that base who have died in the war on terror. Unless the memorial is illegal which than my argument is moot. But if it's not, then I see no reason why a cross changes the memorial. There are crosses used on memorials across graveyards across the country.

Because those headstones are representative of a single person and not a representative of the "people".
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#19  Postby turnerj41 » Apr 13, 2012 6:15 am

willhud9 wrote::facepalm:

Who cares? I get it, it may not be 100% legal. I give you that. But really? Let me ask this one question: why does it bother anyone?


It might bother some people, but it seems that the rule should be all and any religious signage can be determined by the base commander as. Their must be equal access. The question we should ask is why we wouldn't tolerate this if Muslim marines placed a crescent moon in the same place. I think the courts have already ruled on this type of thing anyway, guess a new judge will take a shot. Chances are that it will come down... it isn't Georgia.
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Re: Atheists Threaten to Sue Over crosses at Camp Pendleton

#20  Postby biscuit » Apr 13, 2012 9:54 am

Weaver wrote:Yeah, not a religious symbol at all.
That's why the camp Chaplains so regularly lead up groups to pray at the site.


camp chaplains? do you mean this?

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