Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#41  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 3:19 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:
Don't blame you for thinking that was real. There wasn't a single joke in the whole article. Why do some people think that simply writing a false but ironic story constitutes satire?



It is satire; it's just not funny satire. More cosmic irony than comic irony.

While satire today is often seen as a vehicle for comedy, in the past it was much drier and more opprobrious.

I'd agree though that it could have had more creativity in it than was offered as it gives details that wouldn't really be relevant even in an honest report, but none of them relate well to the central irony.

Basically, the problem isn't so much that it wasn't funny as that it wasn't very good.

Reading some of the other articles on the website, I'd say it's definitely trying to be comedy. I certainly don't think it's trying to be satire in the George Orwell sense. And in that respect, not very funny and not very good at the same thing.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#42  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 3:24 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:
Don't blame you for thinking that was real. There wasn't a single joke in the whole article. Why do some people think that simply writing a false but ironic story constitutes satire?



It is satire; it's just not funny satire. More cosmic irony than comic irony.

While satire today is often seen as a vehicle for comedy, in the past it was much drier and more opprobrious.

I'd agree though that it could have had more creativity in it than was offered as it gives details that wouldn't really be relevant even in an honest report, but none of them relate well to the central irony.

Basically, the problem isn't so much that it wasn't funny as that it wasn't very good.


Reading some of the other articles on the website, I'd say it's definitely trying to be comedy. I certainly don't think it's trying to be satire in the George Orwell sense. And in that respect, not very funny and not very good at the same thing.


It's probably more schadenfreude than anything, but it doesn't really do that well either.

It would be easy to make it funnier; the firemen could've been busy saving a local YMCA, or the fire could have burned down all the houses in the neighborhood except for the local area's well known flamboyantly gay couple.

It could have gone in a bit deeper still on the non-comic side and had comments by fake priests or ex-rugby players saying that it must be God's punishment for Foley's lifestyle choices.

So I agree it could've been better, but I think they just wanted to put the boot in, and fair dinkum to that! :grin:
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#43  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 3:29 pm

Svartalf wrote:given that children are gendered, and that pedophiles still tend to prefer one gender over the other, in addition to require the victim to be pre pubescent, I'd say that pedophilia can still be qualified as hetero or homosexual in nature.

You might find that paedophiles will abuse who they have access to. I've read a lot about paedophiles who will abuse both genders, which you don't typically find with a rapist with adult victims.

I might also be tempted to make a distinction between a paedophile who is attracted exclusively or predominantly to young pre-pubescent children, and a child abuser who is normally attracted to adults but has sexual contact with, for example, a teenager below the age of consent. I'd say in the latter case, the victim's gender is far more likely to match the abuser's sexuality in terms of the adults they are attracted to. This is of course speculation. I don't have the figures on it. What are the ages of Cardinal Pell's victims?
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#44  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 3:36 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
I might also be tempted to make a distinction between a paedophile who is attracted exclusively or predominantly to young pre-pubescent children, and a child abuser who is normally attracted to adults but has sexual contact with, for example, a teenager below the age of consent. I'd say in the latter case, the victim's gender is far more likely to match the abuser's sexuality in terms of the adults they are attracted to. This is of course speculation. I don't have the figures on it. What are the ages of Cardinal Pell's victims?


However, sexual contact with a post-pubescent teenager younger than the age of consent (say 15 y .o.) isn't pedophilia; legally, it would be rape.

Pedophilia is a "primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children".

Some psychologists have attempted to explain it in terms of another form of sexuality, there is heterosexuality, homosexuality, and pedophilia. Just as some people are attracted to the opposite gender (binary, for the sake of the argument), some people are attracted to the same gender, pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children - not to a gender, but to that particular group.

Of course, if a 14 year old boy has sexual contact with a 12 year old prepubescent girl, it's not considered pedophilia: it's typically a disorder associated with adulthood and an understanding of consent.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#45  Postby Hermit » Nov 22, 2019 4:02 pm

Spearthrower wrote:The population has also doubled in that time as well though from 12.5m (in 1970) to 25m today, although I expect a fairly significant part of that is immigration from traditionally non-Christian countries - not coincidental to the ending of the White Australia Policy.

Since the end of the notorious White Australia Policy in 1972 immigration has indeed become more multicultural. Nevertheless, as of 2018 foreign born Australians, estimated at 7,341,910 out of a total of 24,991,910 in 2018, only about 2,302,240 are non-Caucasians, and many of those non-Caucasians are at least nominally Christian. 91.3% of the 278,000 immigrants from the Philippines, for example, are nominally Christian, as are 23.4% of the 651,000 mainland Chinese, 75.5% of the 189,000 South Africans and 27.6% of the 116,120 South Koreans. The figures are of course somewhat spongy, what with self-reporting and nominalism, but it looks to me as though immigration had little impact on Australians describing themselves as belonging to no religion.

Also, note that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims et al. are unlikely to tick the "no religion" box in the census form.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#46  Postby I'm With Stupid » Nov 22, 2019 4:16 pm

Spearthrower wrote:However, sexual contact with a post-pubescent teenager younger than the age of consent (say 15 y .o.) isn't pedophilia; legally, it would be rape.

But in popular culture and the media it is. So when we're talking about cases of child abuse and the patterns therein, we have to be clear exactly what we're talking about.

Spearthrower wrote:Pedophilia is a "primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children".

So there's a lot of questions involved here. How many people who actually abuse prepubescent children actually fit this definition, and how many also enjoy relationships with adults? And of those who maintain adult sexual relationships, does their sexuality in this area match up with the gender of children they abuse, or are they pretty indiscriminate about it? And a further question that might muddy the water is to what extent are child abusers actually physically motivated by an attraction to children (i.e. the definition of a paedophile), and how many use rape as part of a wider abusive power dynamic similar to what you might see in prison or war. All of these factors make it quite difficult to come to any conclusions.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#47  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 4:28 pm

Hermit wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The population has also doubled in that time as well though from 12.5m (in 1970) to 25m today, although I expect a fairly significant part of that is immigration from traditionally non-Christian countries - not coincidental to the ending of the White Australia Policy.

Since the end of the notorious White Australia Policy in 1972 immigration has indeed become more multicultural. Nevertheless, as of 2018 foreign born Australians, estimated at 7,341,910 out of a total of 24,991,910 in 2018, only about 2,302,240 are non-Caucasians, and many of those non-Caucasians are at least nominally Christian. 91.3% of the 278,000 immigrants from the Philippines, for example, are nominally Christian, as are 23.4% of the 651,000 mainland Chinese, 75.5% of the 189,000 South Africans and 27.6% of the 116,120 South Koreans. The figures are of course somewhat spongy, what with self-reporting and nominalism, but it looks to me as though immigration had little impact on Australians describing themselves as belonging to no religion.

Also, note that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims et al. are unlikely to tick the "no religion" box in the census form.



Oh no, I completely agree... but it's just that your graph isn't giving us any relevant information. With that many more people the difference in the actual number of Christians cannot be detected from the graph you cited. We don't need to look at the actual figures to know that; it just stands to reason from that population increase.

If the population was static, then the increase previously cited of people identifying as 'no religion' would indicate substantially less Christians. However, given the dramatic increase in population, it's not so clear as there could be just as many Christians in total today as in 1970; the graph would just show that they represent less of the population than in 1970. That is, in fact, all that the graph can show you.

For example, in 1970 there were 12 million people and 7% of them identified as no religion (so let's say 11 million Christians max), whereas today there are 25 million people and 30% of them identify as no religion leaving 17.5m being religious - of course, that's not to say they're all Christians, but it certainly doesn't suggest that there are less Christians either.

Basically, the graph lacks the information for which you were using it.

Luckily, we don't really need to go to all these lengths when the 2016 Census had Australians indicate that 52% of the population identify as Christian of one denomination or another. That's 13 million Christians - that means there are more Christians today than in 1970, it's just that they represent less of the total population than in 1970.


Edit for math! :D
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#48  Postby Hermit » Nov 22, 2019 4:49 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:The population has also doubled in that time as well though from 12.5m (in 1970) to 25m today, although I expect a fairly significant part of that is immigration from traditionally non-Christian countries - not coincidental to the ending of the White Australia Policy.

Since the end of the notorious White Australia Policy in 1972 immigration has indeed become more multicultural. Nevertheless, as of 2018 foreign born Australians, estimated at 7,341,910 out of a total of 24,991,910 in 2018, only about 2,302,240 are non-Caucasians, and many of those non-Caucasians are at least nominally Christian. 91.3% of the 278,000 immigrants from the Philippines, for example, are nominally Christian, as are 23.4% of the 651,000 mainland Chinese, 75.5% of the 189,000 South Africans and 27.6% of the 116,120 South Koreans. The figures are of course somewhat spongy, what with self-reporting and nominalism, but it looks to me as though immigration had little impact on Australians describing themselves as belonging to no religion.

Also, note that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims et al. are unlikely to tick the "no religion" box in the census form.



Oh no, I completely agree... but it's just that your graph isn't giving us any relevant information. With that many more people the difference in the actual number of Christians cannot be detected from the graph you cited. We don't need to look at the actual figures to know that; it just stands to reason from that population increase.

If the population was static, then the increase previously cited of people identifying as 'no religion' would indicate substantially less Christians. However, given the dramatic increase in population, it's not so clear as there could be just as many Christians in total today as in 1970; the graph would just show that they represent less of the population than in 1970. That is, in fact, all that the graph can show you.

For example, in 1970 there were 7 million people and 7% of them identified as no religion (so let's say 6.5 million Christians max), whereas today there are 25 million people and 30% of them identify as no religion leaving 17.5m being religious - of course, that's not to say they're all Christians, but it certainly doesn't suggest that there are less Christians either.

Basically, the graph lacks the information for which you were using it.

Luckily, we don't really need to go to all these lengths when the 2016 Census had Australians indicate that 52% of the population identify as Christian of one denomination or another. That's 13 million Christians - that means there are double the number of Christians today than in 1970, it's just that they represent less of the total population than in 1970.

When we discuss the possible rise of Christian fundamentalism we need to look at it in terms of percentages of the total population. The rise in population over time then becomes an irrelevance. The graph indicates (roughly) that Australians reporting themselves to adhere to the Christian religion has dropped from about 98 or 99% of whatever the population was at the time to a bit under 70% of whatever the population was in 2016. As I mentioned before, that trend makes it difficult to see a contrary rise in fundyism, and especially so - as I noted later on - when seen in conjunction with the drop of church attendance of those who did report themselves as Christians from 44% to 16% in the same period. The total number of fundies may well have increased. In percentage terms, which is what matters, fundamentalism in Australia most likely has not.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#49  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 5:07 pm

Hermit wrote:
When we discuss the possible rise of Christian fundamentalism we need to look at it in terms of percentages of the total population.


Why?

That doesn't make any sense at all.

If there are 10 million Christians and 1% of them are fundamentalists, then later there are still 10 million Christians but now 10% of them are fundamentalists, then there's a rise in fundamentalism. It doesn't matter what's happened in the rest of the population demographics. Same number of Christians, but the percentage of Christians who are fundamentalist has changed.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#50  Postby Hermit » Nov 22, 2019 6:31 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:
When we discuss the possible rise of Christian fundamentalism we need to look at it in terms of percentages of the total population.

Why?

That doesn't make any sense at all.

If there are 10 million Christians and 1% of them are fundamentalists, then later there are still 10 million Christians but now 10% of them are fundamentalists, then there's a rise in fundamentalism. It doesn't matter what's happened in the rest of the population demographics. Same number of Christians, but the percentage of Christians who are fundamentalist has changed.

Sure, but now there are only 7 million Christians and where did you get that tenfold increase of fundies among them from? Pending statistical evidence to the contrary it makes more sense to assume a more or less steady state. Election results on the federal as well as state level bear this out. If anything, the political wing of the fundies, the Christian Democratic Party, was more successful in its first two decades since its foundation in 1977 than it is now.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#51  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 6:32 pm

Hermit wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Hermit wrote:
When we discuss the possible rise of Christian fundamentalism we need to look at it in terms of percentages of the total population.

Why?

That doesn't make any sense at all.

If there are 10 million Christians and 1% of them are fundamentalists, then later there are still 10 million Christians but now 10% of them are fundamentalists, then there's a rise in fundamentalism. It doesn't matter what's happened in the rest of the population demographics. Same number of Christians, but the percentage of Christians who are fundamentalist has changed.


Sure, but now there are only 7 million Christians and where did you get that tenfold increase of fundies among them from?


It was clearly just an example.

:what:


I'll pretend you just said 'sure'.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#52  Postby OlivierK » Nov 22, 2019 8:10 pm

The thing to remember is that census figures are self-reports, and a fuckton of Australians, mostly older, simply tick the box of their family's tradition religion without actually being in any way meaningfully religious - for example a third-generation Italian-Australian may tick Catholic out of habit, but not because they go to church or believe Catholic dogma, but because that's the section of the cemetery their grandparents are buried in.

As Hermit posted, church/mosque/synagogue/temple attendance is very low here. What may be driving a skewing towards fundamentalism within the church-going population (and numbers of churches, etc) is simply that those who were once more moderate in their religion now simply don't bother with it at all.

Anyway, in looking around fro some stats I came across this opinion poll: https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/bloga ... fographic/

It's a bit scattershot, but it's got some interesting stuff in it, including a set of approval ratings of religious descriptors, in which "Practicing Christian" scores +28% and "Fundamentalist Christian" scores -31%, and the general statistic that of the 92% of Australians who are not regular church attendees, 47% give the reason as religion being irrelevant to their lives - and yet some of those are clearly still ticking a box other than "No religion" on the census. Go figure.

My own mother only ever ticked "No religion" on the census once she was past 80 years old, and needed my help with the form. Prior to that she ticked Catholic out of habit/loyalty to her late parents, but she was the least religious person you could imagine, beyond a sort of wishy-washy pantheism. She often said that the last religion to offer something that gelled with her thoughts was the Ancient Egyptian worship of the sun as giver/sustainer of life. And yet, Catholic for census purposes :roll:
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#53  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 8:16 pm

OlivierK wrote:The thing to remember is that census figures are self-reports, and a fuckton of Australians, mostly older, simply tick the box of their family's tradition religion without actually being in any way meaningfully religious - for example a third-generation Italian-Australian may tick Catholic out of habit, but not because they go to church or believe Catholic dogma, but because that's the section of the cemetery their grandparents are buried in.

As Hermit posted, church/mosque/synagogue/temple attendance is very low here. What may be driving a skewing towards fundamentalism within the church-going population (and numbers of churches, etc) is simply that those who were once more moderate in their religion now simply don't bother with it at all.

Anyway, in looking around fro some stats I came across this opinion poll: https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/bloga ... fographic/

It's a bit scattershot, but it's got some interesting stuff in it, including a set of approval ratings of religious descriptors, in which "Practicing Christian" scores +28% and "Fundamentalist Christian" scores -31%, and the general statistic that of the 92% of Australians who are not regular church attendees, 47% give the reason as religion being irrelevant to their lives - and yet some of those are clearly still ticking a box other than "No religion" on the census. Go figure.

My own mother only ever ticked "No religion" on the census once she was past 80 years old, and needed my help with the form. Prior to that she ticked Catholic out of habit/loyalty to her late parents, but she was the least religious person you could imagine, beyond a sort of wishy-washy pantheism. She often said that the last religion to offer something that gelled with her thoughts was the Ancient Egyptian worship of the sun as giver/sustainer of life. And yet, Catholic for census purposes :roll:



Yeah, this is all very similar to the UK, which is why I originally compared them together. I had a similar experience with my grandad who'd identified as a Christian all his life, but then when I asked him one Sunday while I was visiting the UK whether he was going to church, he laughed and said he 'didn't believe in God and all that'. So I asked him why he identified as Christian, and he replied that it was because of Christian values, like charity, compassion, honesty... and so on. Then I gently remarked that they seemed to be true of people all over the world, and he agreed! :lol: The idea of 'cultural' religion persists, particularly in the older generations as rejecting the locally preferred label would have been scandalous when they were in their formative years.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#54  Postby OlivierK » Nov 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Yep. It's one of the reason identification with the church has been hit so hard by scandals, and in particular child sex abuse scandals. Lots of irreligious folk were happy to side with the church at least nominally when the church was seen as standing for compassion and charity, and less so when the the church's public image is as a safe haven for paedophiles.


And further to the discussion of the effects of immigration on Australian religiosity:

Image
(from the National Church Life Survey supported by major Christian denominations, 2016)

Immigration is propping up Christianity, not eroding it: first generation Australians are disproportionately likely to attend church.

But as I said earlier, fundyism is still very, very fringe. A growing, but hardly dominant slice of the 7% of Australians who engage in regular attendance of places of worship, amongst a population who have an overwhelmingly dim view of Christian fundamentalism.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#55  Postby Spearthrower » Nov 22, 2019 8:44 pm

But as I said earlier, fundyism is still very, very fringe. A growing, but hardly dominant slice of the 7% of Australians who engage in regular attendance of places of worship, amongst a population who have an overwhelmingly dim view of Christian fundamentalism.


This is a bit lower than the UK, and I think there's a significant disparity in the UK between Protestants and Catholics, with those identifying as the latter being much more likely to go to church; I expect there's something similar in Australia for that too.

I'm not sure whether immigration is causing a net increase in those residing in the UK to identify as Christian - while Eastern Europeans are more likely to identify as Christian, the ones who emigrate to the UK tend to be younger, and probably more likely to be non-religious. I doubt immigrants have much effect and the percentage will just drop naturally over the coming decades as the older Christian identifying generation dies.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#56  Postby Hermit » Nov 23, 2019 5:48 am

OlivierK wrote:The thing to remember is that census figures are self-reports, and a fuckton of Australians, mostly older, simply tick the box of their family's tradition religion without actually being in any way meaningfully religious - for example a third-generation Italian-Australian may tick Catholic out of habit, but not because they go to church or believe Catholic dogma, but because that's the section of the cemetery their grandparents are buried in.

There's a curious contrast between the Catholic and the Anglican Churches in Australia in relation to people leaving them. In the 1921 census 43.7% of the population reported itself as Anglicans and 21.7% as Catholics. By 2016 Anglicans had shrunk to 13.3%, while Catholic membership was slightly up at 22.6% (although it did drop steadily from a high of 27.3% in 1991). The curious aspect is that as far as values in the real world is concerned, the record of Catholic clergy is by far the worst in terms of sexual abuses and the effort put into to covering them up. Of the thousands of formal complaints submitted to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse 62% concerned Catholic religious functionaries, the balance all other religious institutions.

On account of the much publicised conviction of Cardinal Pell for sexually assaulting altar boys I expect the next census (2021) to show a marked drop in Catholic membership, but nothing spectacular. The Church weathered his support for Australia's worst child rapist, the priest he shared a house with in 1973, Gerald Ridsdale. It also managed to shrug off the many instances where coverups by the Church of sex crimes committed by Catholic clergy were revealed. Should Pell's second appeal against his conviction, to be heard by the full panel of seven judges in the high court in Canberra some time next year, succeed, I expect an exodus to diminish almost to the point of disappearance.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#57  Postby OlivierK » Nov 23, 2019 8:21 am

I wouldn't read too much into any of that; the biggest driver of the increase of Catholicism relative to Anglicanism in the mid-20th century was the post-war wave of European immigrants, Italians most numerous amongst them.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#58  Postby Hermit » Nov 23, 2019 10:43 am

OlivierK wrote:I wouldn't read too much into any of that; the biggest driver of the increase of Catholicism relative to Anglicanism in the mid-20th century was the post-war wave of European immigrants, Italians most numerous amongst them.

Yes, the post-war wave bolstered the catholic contingent, but look at the entire period from 1901 to 2016. The post-war wave doesn't cover the trend for that time span.

Code: Select all
       Anglican        Catholic   
       %      change   %       change
            
1901   39.7            22.7   
1911   38.4   -1.3     22.4   -0.3
1921   43.7    5.3     21.7   -0.7
1933   38.7   -5.0     19.6   -2.1
1947   39.0    0.3     20.9    1.3
1954   37.9   -1.1     22.9    2.0
1961   34.9   -3.0     24.9    2.0
1966   33.5   -1.4     26.2    1.3
1971   31.0   -2.5     27.0    0.8
1976   27.7   -3.3     25.7   -1.3
1981   26.1   -1.6     26.0    0.3
1986   23.9   -2.2     26.0    0.0
1991   23.8   -0.1     27.3    1.3
1996   22.0   -1.8     27.0   -0.3
2001   20.7   -1.3     26.6   -0.4
2006   18.7   -2.0     25.8   -0.8
2011   17.1   -1.6     25.3   -0.5
2016   13.3   -3.8     22.6   -2.7

With the exception of 1976 the percentage of Catholics grew or stayed steady in every census from 1933 to 1991, and when it did drop from 1996 onwards, it dropped at a fraction of the rate Anglicans left their Church.
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Re: Australian Bushfires Caused By Enviromental Gayness?

#59  Postby felltoearth » Dec 05, 2019 2:38 pm

Hermit wrote:
I'm With Stupid wrote:There wasn't a single joke in the whole article. Why do some people think that simply writing a false but ironic story constitutes satire?

The ability to recognise humour delivered deadpan style has been stunted with the advent of TV shows that incorporate laugh tracks. They do two things. On the one hand they disguise the fact that quite a number of moments you are supposed to laugh at are actually not really funny at all. (Check it out by clicking on one of the many Youtube clips where the laugh track has been removed.) On the other hand you lose the knack of spotting the funny bits yourself.

When I read post #6 I did not need to click on the link to find out if the quoted excerpt was a spoof. It was too obvious, though I understand that it is not to people who have been raised on Bob Hope type oneliners and neon lights atop the stage alerting people when to laugh, applaud, boo and so on. Nevertheless, I did click on the link because I wanted to find something in writing to the effect that this is a joke. People do want opinion backed by evidence.

You may laugh now. Image

Nah I don’t think so. A bad joke still reads as a bad joke because it is delivered as if it is a joke. This article simply lied thinking lying is satire.
"Walla Walla Bonga!" — Witticism
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