Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#41  Postby Willie71 » Mar 20, 2017 4:26 pm

willhud9 wrote:They are losing elections to right wing corporate shills. How exactly are their policies worse than these other guys. Canada just fucking had Stephen Harper has Prime Minister. Australia had Tony Abbot. England now has Theresa May. And the US just elected Donald Trump. The people of the western world have been voting more right wing then anything else lately.

You can say the Democratic Parties platform sucks, but do tell me what about their platform actually sucks? I want specific platforms, not just your general vague assertions about what democrats do or do not stand for.

Because to be honest the Democratic Party has been pushing for a) affordable healthcare b) affordable education c) LGBTQ rights, d) gun reform e) criminal justice reform f) welfare reform and extensions g) a reduction of defense spending and proper reappropriations of those funds and a variety of other issues which makes Democrats 100x more appealing than the GOP.

The point which you and crank ignored above is that there are ONLY 2 viable parties in the USA and it is a major pipe dream at this point in time to think that major reform is going to happen to shake up the political structure. The Democratic Party is a large party that has to appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. The far left is included in that, but the far left is a minority bloc in the Democratic Party. If the far left really wants to make substantial change than they have to work through the party that caters to people who identify as moderates but really are republican-lites. These are the democrats who don't really care about gay rights, or civil rights, or the fact that black people encounter systematic racism. These are the democrats who really care about making sure they or their family recieve medicaid, social security, etc. or retain their union jobs, etc. Those are not the far left and oftentimes they and the far left butt heads. But they all fall under the Democratic Party and because of that the Democratic Party has to appeal to the average voter in its constituency. The GOP has to do likewise, but it keeps shifting closer to neo-liberalism it is leaving a lot of moderate right wing individuals and Libertarian individuals behind.

Now the way I see progressives can act like spoiled children who did not get what they wanted for Christmas and they can throw hissy fits that their messiahs or knights in shining armor were not elected to a position of authority and recognition or they can be an asset and actually help work with the system to change the system. I align myself with many progressive ideologies. I am also a realist. The Democratic Party is MY BEST CHANCE at improving America in the direction I want it to go. You can continue to act all obstructionist and self righteous or you can actually provide substance which shows the the platforms of the Democratic Party actually do suck.

Im not holding my breath though. :yawn:


That's good, because you won't get what you want. Affordable health care? Sanders tried to lower drug prices, and Dems voted against it. Who cares what's in the platform. You are that naïve? The Dems cut the safety net over the past four decades just like the republicans.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#42  Postby Shrunk » Mar 20, 2017 4:28 pm

willhud9 wrote:They Canada just fucking had Stephen Harper has Prime Minister.


Until he got his ass royally kicked by a third way democrat.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#43  Postby willhud9 » Mar 20, 2017 7:24 pm

Willie71 wrote:
willhud9 wrote:They are losing elections to right wing corporate shills. How exactly are their policies worse than these other guys. Canada just fucking had Stephen Harper has Prime Minister. Australia had Tony Abbot. England now has Theresa May. And the US just elected Donald Trump. The people of the western world have been voting more right wing then anything else lately.

You can say the Democratic Parties platform sucks, but do tell me what about their platform actually sucks? I want specific platforms, not just your general vague assertions about what democrats do or do not stand for.

Because to be honest the Democratic Party has been pushing for a) affordable healthcare b) affordable education c) LGBTQ rights, d) gun reform e) criminal justice reform f) welfare reform and extensions g) a reduction of defense spending and proper reappropriations of those funds and a variety of other issues which makes Democrats 100x more appealing than the GOP.

The point which you and crank ignored above is that there are ONLY 2 viable parties in the USA and it is a major pipe dream at this point in time to think that major reform is going to happen to shake up the political structure. The Democratic Party is a large party that has to appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. The far left is included in that, but the far left is a minority bloc in the Democratic Party. If the far left really wants to make substantial change than they have to work through the party that caters to people who identify as moderates but really are republican-lites. These are the democrats who don't really care about gay rights, or civil rights, or the fact that black people encounter systematic racism. These are the democrats who really care about making sure they or their family recieve medicaid, social security, etc. or retain their union jobs, etc. Those are not the far left and oftentimes they and the far left butt heads. But they all fall under the Democratic Party and because of that the Democratic Party has to appeal to the average voter in its constituency. The GOP has to do likewise, but it keeps shifting closer to neo-liberalism it is leaving a lot of moderate right wing individuals and Libertarian individuals behind.

Now the way I see progressives can act like spoiled children who did not get what they wanted for Christmas and they can throw hissy fits that their messiahs or knights in shining armor were not elected to a position of authority and recognition or they can be an asset and actually help work with the system to change the system. I align myself with many progressive ideologies. I am also a realist. The Democratic Party is MY BEST CHANCE at improving America in the direction I want it to go. You can continue to act all obstructionist and self righteous or you can actually provide substance which shows the the platforms of the Democratic Party actually do suck.

Im not holding my breath though. :yawn:


That's good, because you won't get what you want. Affordable health care? Sanders tried to lower drug prices, and Dems voted against it. Who cares what's in the platform. You are that naïve? The Dems cut the safety net over the past four decades just like the republicans.


Those democrats that voted against also have major pharmaceutical companies in their states which provides their state plenty of revenue which directly benefits their direct constituents. You do know a senator in Michigan's primary job is to make sure Michigan and the interests of Michigan are taken care of correct?

Just because you and Sanders supported it does not mean it was a good bill for every state to support nor was it a bill all people would be happy or benefit from. Your black and white approach to this issue is wearisome.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#44  Postby purplerat » Mar 20, 2017 8:43 pm

Willie71 wrote:
The MSM suggested Hillary ways a shoe in, manufacturing consent. She lost to a black Marxist with a Muslim name. I don't know any thinking people who thought Clinton had this in the bag.

Hillary's approval numbers post-2008 through 2012 into 2013 - roughly the same time frame as we are in now for a hypothetical 'young Bernie' 2020 run - were right about where Bernie's are now. Numbers which you were so impressed with you decided yet another Bernie thread was needed.

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Her approval numbers started taking a big dip after the 2012 election when it was apparent she'd most likely be the 2016 candidate. The point being that I wouldn't be so sure that Bernie would remain so popular over the next 3+ years if he was expected to be the front-runner for the Dem nomination.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#45  Postby Willie71 » Mar 20, 2017 9:09 pm

Shrunk wrote:
willhud9 wrote:They Canada just fucking had Stephen Harper has Prime Minister.


Until he got his ass royally kicked by a third way democrat.


He didn't run as a third way democrat, did he? He ran as a populist.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#46  Postby laklak » Mar 20, 2017 9:12 pm

If he ran and won in 2020 he'd be almost 80 when he took office. Nobody is going to vote for that old fossil.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#47  Postby Willie71 » Mar 20, 2017 9:15 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Willie71 wrote:
willhud9 wrote:They are losing elections to right wing corporate shills. How exactly are their policies worse than these other guys. Canada just fucking had Stephen Harper has Prime Minister. Australia had Tony Abbot. England now has Theresa May. And the US just elected Donald Trump. The people of the western world have been voting more right wing then anything else lately.

You can say the Democratic Parties platform sucks, but do tell me what about their platform actually sucks? I want specific platforms, not just your general vague assertions about what democrats do or do not stand for.

Because to be honest the Democratic Party has been pushing for a) affordable healthcare b) affordable education c) LGBTQ rights, d) gun reform e) criminal justice reform f) welfare reform and extensions g) a reduction of defense spending and proper reappropriations of those funds and a variety of other issues which makes Democrats 100x more appealing than the GOP.

The point which you and crank ignored above is that there are ONLY 2 viable parties in the USA and it is a major pipe dream at this point in time to think that major reform is going to happen to shake up the political structure. The Democratic Party is a large party that has to appeal to a large demographic of potential voters. The far left is included in that, but the far left is a minority bloc in the Democratic Party. If the far left really wants to make substantial change than they have to work through the party that caters to people who identify as moderates but really are republican-lites. These are the democrats who don't really care about gay rights, or civil rights, or the fact that black people encounter systematic racism. These are the democrats who really care about making sure they or their family recieve medicaid, social security, etc. or retain their union jobs, etc. Those are not the far left and oftentimes they and the far left butt heads. But they all fall under the Democratic Party and because of that the Democratic Party has to appeal to the average voter in its constituency. The GOP has to do likewise, but it keeps shifting closer to neo-liberalism it is leaving a lot of moderate right wing individuals and Libertarian individuals behind.

Now the way I see progressives can act like spoiled children who did not get what they wanted for Christmas and they can throw hissy fits that their messiahs or knights in shining armor were not elected to a position of authority and recognition or they can be an asset and actually help work with the system to change the system. I align myself with many progressive ideologies. I am also a realist. The Democratic Party is MY BEST CHANCE at improving America in the direction I want it to go. You can continue to act all obstructionist and self righteous or you can actually provide substance which shows the the platforms of the Democratic Party actually do suck.

Im not holding my breath though. :yawn:


That's good, because you won't get what you want. Affordable health care? Sanders tried to lower drug prices, and Dems voted against it. Who cares what's in the platform. You are that naïve? The Dems cut the safety net over the past four decades just like the republicans.


Those democrats that voted against also have major pharmaceutical companies in their states which provides their state plenty of revenue which directly benefits their direct constituents. You do know a senator in Michigan's primary job is to make sure Michigan and the interests of Michigan are taken care of correct?

Just because you and Sanders supported it does not mean it was a good bill for every state to support nor was it a bill all people would be happy or benefit from. Your black and white approach to this issue is wearisome.


You realize these pharmaceutical companies make plenty of profit all over the world, but they control the market in the US with no ability for the government to negotiate better pricing? The only people that benefit are the drug companies, and the politicians who take bribes from them. They could still make a killing, just a less obscene one, but you think that's wrong?
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#48  Postby Willie71 » Mar 20, 2017 9:17 pm

purplerat wrote:
Willie71 wrote:
The MSM suggested Hillary ways a shoe in, manufacturing consent. She lost to a black Marxist with a Muslim name. I don't know any thinking people who thought Clinton had this in the bag.

Hillary's approval numbers post-2008 through 2012 into 2013 - roughly the same time frame as we are in now for a hypothetical 'young Bernie' 2020 run - were right about where Bernie's are now. Numbers which you were so impressed with you decided yet another Bernie thread was needed.

Image

Her approval numbers started taking a big dip after the 2012 election when it was apparent she'd most likely be the 2016 candidate. The point being that I wouldn't be so sure that Bernie would remain so popular over the next 3+ years if he was expected to be the front-runner for the Dem nomination.


Yeah, when Sanders arms deals, Wall Street connections, pay to play scandals, and lack of ability to connect with people are all brought forward, he's be done for too. :scratch:

One of these things is not like the other.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#49  Postby purplerat » Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm

Willie71 wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Willie71 wrote:
The MSM suggested Hillary ways a shoe in, manufacturing consent. She lost to a black Marxist with a Muslim name. I don't know any thinking people who thought Clinton had this in the bag.

Hillary's approval numbers post-2008 through 2012 into 2013 - roughly the same time frame as we are in now for a hypothetical 'young Bernie' 2020 run - were right about where Bernie's are now. Numbers which you were so impressed with you decided yet another Bernie thread was needed.

Image

Her approval numbers started taking a big dip after the 2012 election when it was apparent she'd most likely be the 2016 candidate. The point being that I wouldn't be so sure that Bernie would remain so popular over the next 3+ years if he was expected to be the front-runner for the Dem nomination.


Yeah, when Sanders arms deals, Wall Street connections, pay to play scandals, and lack of ability to connect with people are all brought forward, he's be done for too. :scratch:

One of these things is not like the other.

The thing is that Clinton was who she was in 2013. It was no secret but she still had high approval ratings. Then as soon as she's in the right's crosshairs they drop like a rock. I get that you think St. Bernie is infallible and could never be dragged down like that but I'm not so sure. I suppose that means I'm suffering some mental lapse of some sort.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#50  Postby Byron » Mar 20, 2017 9:41 pm

Yup, behind her, Clinton dragged a flotilla of garbage scows from which her opponents could shovel dirt at their leisure. This was wholly predictable, which is why, despite waiting on that crystal ball, I predicted the general result back in 2015, including Trump wheeling out the women who accused Slick Willy of all manner of violent felonies.

What of Sanders? The worst I've been able to find is that, when riled, he's a cranky SOB in Burlington (which everyone already knew), he voted for that crime bill, and he's described himself as a socialist (which, again, everyone knew). However much dirt the alt-right and their GOP enablers threw, it had to stick, or it'd rebound on them, further stinking up their own campaign.

And while they're throwing it, Sanders could've rebutted at length with the embarrassment of riches Trump gave him, a pot of gold that Clinton couldn't dip into without inviting comparison with her own record. Sanders could've still lost, sure, but unlike Clinton, he had a chance.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#51  Postby crank » Mar 20, 2017 10:54 pm

Byron wrote:Yup, behind her, Clinton dragged a flotilla of garbage scows from which her opponents could shovel dirt at their leisure. This was wholly predictable, which is why, despite waiting on that crystal ball, I predicted the general result back in 2015, including Trump wheeling out the women who accused Slick Willy of all manner of violent felonies.

What of Sanders? The worst I've been able to find is that, when riled, he's a cranky SOB in Burlington (which everyone already knew), he voted for that crime bill, and he's described himself as a socialist (which, again, everyone knew). However much dirt the alt-right and their GOP enablers threw, it had to stick, or it'd rebound on them, further stinking up their own campaign.

And while they're throwing it, Sanders could've rebutted at length with the embarrassment of riches Trump gave him, a pot of gold that Clinton couldn't dip into without inviting comparison with her own record. Sanders could've still lost, sure, but unlike Clinton, he had a chance.

He had a chance. I sure as hell would never say Bernie would have won, how many are saying that outright? I don't think Hillary had no chance, only that Bernie most likely had a better one. The GOP attack machine is quite capable, it helps that they feel no constraints like taste, class, truth, etc. And then, Bernie was quite good at protecting himself and giving back, as you say. The whole tenor of the campaign would have been drastically different, and trying to form counterfactuals never results in anything real in the best of circumstances short of the trite, like if I had turned off spell-check, my posts would appear far more idiotic. That these same BS arguments keep popping up is crazy, as is Dims thinking they'll do better next time if they push the same agenda even harder.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#52  Postby Byron » Mar 20, 2017 11:06 pm

Clinton would've had a chance if she'd turned convincingly against neoliberalism and gotten the Rust Belt onside (always Trump's best route to victory). Unfortunately, doing so wasn't in her nature, which is why she proved unelectable.

Trump would never have been able to outflank Sanders from the left. The tenor would've been very different: Trump may've won with some good ol' fashioned red baiting; and immigration controls were the Don's ace in the hole. But Sanders would've had several of his own, including Trump's hypocrisy on off-shoring, and real dedication to draining the swamp.

Agree that this is, now, about the Dems dropping their current corporatist agenda. For the reason Lak gives, doubt we'll be feeling the Bern in '20, but Sanders points the way forward. Get serious on repatriating jobs and manufacturing, DNC, or make Trump a two-termer.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#53  Postby Willie71 » Mar 20, 2017 11:13 pm

Yup, no one said he would have won for sure, just that he's much easier to believe when he says he wants to help working people. That resonated. Clinton could never sell that message, while trump could in spite of his obvious hypocrisy.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#54  Postby Byron » Mar 20, 2017 11:22 pm

In primaries, then the general, Trump was great at feigning brutal honesty: politicians, they're all corrupt, and I should know, I'm the guy who bribed them. His groupies could graft themselves onto his success, feel like the in-crowd, winners who knew the score. He embraced what he was and made it work for him.

Clinton, by contrast, pretended to be someone else, and fooled no-one.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#55  Postby willhud9 » Mar 21, 2017 12:01 am

Byron wrote:Clinton would've had a chance if she'd turned convincingly against neoliberalism and gotten the Rust Belt onside (always Trump's best route to victory). Unfortunately, doing so wasn't in her nature, which is why she proved unelectable.


Clinton would have had a chance if people were not gullible idiots. But that is the reality we live in. Anyone with a decent education and knowledge of how markets and job growth works would know that Trump's claims were false. Clinton failed to address Trump's claims, and failed to reassert that the economy was growing stronger.

It is the case of selective vision. Those in the manufacturing market became salty when Democrats and liberals would cite statistics that the job market was growing because in their bubble it was shrinking and quickly. The bastion of Detroit and the rust belt was no long a center for industrial markets because times and markets change. Sanders response to this issue was not much different than Clinton's. The only thing Sanders had was his maverick personality, but it is useless to point that as Trump also had a maverick personality. The people voted for Trump because they believed he could save their jobs and way of life. Clinton, nor Sanders, were in a position to make that promise because both of them were intelligent and honest enough to know they had no authority to do so. If you think the Rust Belt would have voted for Sanders over Trump you are making a lot of dot connecting which has very little ground in objective fact and a lot to do with speculation.

Trump would never have been able to outflank Sanders from the left. The tenor would've been very different: Trump may've won with some good ol' fashioned red baiting; and immigration controls were the Don's ace in the hole. But Sanders would've had several of his own, including Trump's hypocrisy on off-shoring, and real dedication to draining the swamp.


The media reported on all of Trump's disgusting hypocrisy. The media made fun of him. Trump turned that negative press against the media. You think Sanders would have been immune to that twist around? Sanders accuses Trump of hypocrisy and Trump accuses Sanders of spreading fake news. Ad nauseum. Trump was practically immune to criticism that applied to normal presidential candidates. People KNEW he was a disgusting human being, but not enough people cared. So what if he treats women vulgarly? He promises to make sure we keep our jobs! Who cares if he's racist? It means I won't have to compete against those illegal aliens for work.

Agree that this is, now, about the Dems dropping their current corporatist agenda. For the reason Lak gives, doubt we'll be feeling the Bern in '20, but Sanders points the way forward. Get serious on repatriating jobs and manufacturing, DNC, or make Trump a two-termer.


A pipe dream and goes to show that you too Byron have no clue how job markets work. Manufacturing is a dying job market.

Make education free or affordable and allow those who were trained and grew up in the manufacturing business to learn new skills for the competing job market. That is the way forward. Clinton supported that. It was one of her big platforms. Funnily enough the media kind of forgot to give her that kind of press when it was instead obsessed with emails.

Give me a fucking break. :yawn:
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#56  Postby purplerat » Mar 21, 2017 12:02 am

Byron wrote:
Clinton, by contrast, pretended to be someone else, and fooled no-one.

no-one or 68 million. Same diff.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#57  Postby willhud9 » Mar 21, 2017 12:14 am

crank wrote:
Byron wrote:Yup, behind her, Clinton dragged a flotilla of garbage scows from which her opponents could shovel dirt at their leisure. This was wholly predictable, which is why, despite waiting on that crystal ball, I predicted the general result back in 2015, including Trump wheeling out the women who accused Slick Willy of all manner of violent felonies.

What of Sanders? The worst I've been able to find is that, when riled, he's a cranky SOB in Burlington (which everyone already knew), he voted for that crime bill, and he's described himself as a socialist (which, again, everyone knew). However much dirt the alt-right and their GOP enablers threw, it had to stick, or it'd rebound on them, further stinking up their own campaign.

And while they're throwing it, Sanders could've rebutted at length with the embarrassment of riches Trump gave him, a pot of gold that Clinton couldn't dip into without inviting comparison with her own record. Sanders could've still lost, sure, but unlike Clinton, he had a chance.

He had a chance. I sure as hell would never say Bernie would have won, how many are saying that outright? I don't think Hillary had no chance, only that Bernie most likely had a better one. The GOP attack machine is quite capable, it helps that they feel no constraints like taste, class, truth, etc. And then, Bernie was quite good at protecting himself and giving back, as you say. The whole tenor of the campaign would have been drastically different, and trying to form counterfactuals never results in anything real in the best of circumstances short of the trite, like if I had turned off spell-check, my posts would appear far more idiotic. That these same BS arguments keep popping up is crazy, as is Dims thinking they'll do better next time if they push the same agenda even harder.


What agenda? That the economy is getting better? It was. That civil rights were being extended to more people? It was. LGBTQ people saw the greatest strives in American history these past 4 years and the issue was being brought to attention in regards to police brutality and BLM.

The people who voted for Trump instead of Clinton in the places that matter i.e. the Rust Belt fell into the agenda that manufacturing jobs could be brought back to the USA.

The reality is it is cheaper to manufacture goods across the US border. Manufacturers realize this and know that it makes their products cheaper. Textile companies realize making their clothes outside of the US and US labor laws means they can sell their pair of jeans for $19.99 vs $35.99. The vast majority of Americans want cheaper, affordable consumer goods. Well they can't get cheaper goods if it costs more to make then to sell. But even all of that considering, it takes fewer people to run an assembly line than it did 10-20 years ago. It takes fewer people to run a manufacturing plant than it did 10-20 years ago. Cost effective technologies have made it easier to assemble parts and manufactured goods so that means less people needed. Welcome to the manufacturing "crisis."
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#58  Postby willhud9 » Mar 21, 2017 12:25 am

purplerat wrote:
Byron wrote:
Clinton, by contrast, pretended to be someone else, and fooled no-one.

no-one or 68 million. Same diff.


This is also something that confuses me. Clinton won by a large margin of the popular vote. This wasn't like a Gore/Bush 2000 episode were it was really close both in popular vote and electoral college. All these people saying she was not popular, and I'm like :what:
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#59  Postby purplerat » Mar 21, 2017 12:37 am

willhud9 wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Byron wrote:
Clinton, by contrast, pretended to be someone else, and fooled no-one.

no-one or 68 million. Same diff.


This is also something that confuses me. Clinton won by a large margin of the popular vote. This wasn't like a Gore/Bush 2000 episode were it was really close both in popular vote and electoral college. All these people saying she was not popular, and I'm like :what:

They'll argue that everybody voted against Trump. But that still ignores the 16m who voted for her in the primaries. If that many people were just voting against Bernie that would be pretty bad news for him. So I guess those 16m were all corporate shills or suffering from some delusion or something.

But at the end of the day Bernie may very well have received millions of more votes in the general election, but most would have been from deep blue states and made not a lick of difference. It still would have come down to a handful of rust belt states and the question of whether Sanders could have outperformed Clinton in those states. Maybe he could have. He would have needed to basically run the table in those states and given the primary results in those states it's highly questionable and certainly far from a given.

So at the end of the day all we have is that Bernie is a popular fellow. Nobody would deny that. But popularity doesn't mean shit when you can't win elections.
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Re: Bernie Sanders still most popular American politician

#60  Postby Shrunk » Mar 21, 2017 1:00 am

Willie71 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
willhud9 wrote:They Canada just fucking had Stephen Harper has Prime Minister.


Until he got his ass royally kicked by a third way democrat.


He didn't run as a third way democrat, did he? He ran as a populist.


No. And his governing so far has been staunchly 3rd way.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
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