Watching BBC World I am impressed how calmly the Norwegians, including and especially those who were present, are handling this.
My deepest respect.

John P. M. wrote:There are some unconfirmed eye witness accounts now that say that there were two or more gunmen on the island; at least, some have said they saw a shooter who didn't wear a police uniform (as the suspect in custody did). Again, this is just 'rumors' as of now.

When I first heard how many had died I thought he must have had someone on the inside .. Need to wait and see I guess

Are these all young people who were killed? How terribly sad for their parents.

Rumraket wrote:

Juliuseizure wrote:If he didn't attack liberals, saying he was angry at liberals is as relevant as saying he enjoyed marmalade on his toast. Given the propensity for atrocities to be attributed to Islam this is a particularly sensitive topic and the media should be extra-wary of using the Islam justification. Do you understand what I'm saying? He didn't bomb a mosque.

Alright, I get what you are saying. If it was stated that he only despised muslims then that is certainly a mistake. It seems from what can be gathered at this moment, his motivations were to go after what he saw as "enablers" of some supposed "islamification" of Norway and the west in general.

I haven't heard enough to point the dirty end of the stick at Islamophobia yet. Maybe you're right.....but I hope you're wrong. West versus Islam = no winner, only losers.

I went on a family holiday to Norway when I was 7. I've got a scar on my hand from mis-handling a saw when cutting firewood there. I remember salmon is the best food in the world and it is so cheap there! I've got tears in my eyes.

Agrippina wrote:I agree, there is no motive that can justify killing over 80 people. My thoughts are with all the people of Norway.

Unfortunately there are all too many 'motivations' to what is seen as a justified or necessary use of violence. We might note that such motivations are ill-formed or spurious, or the product of a delusion or some other form of irrationality, but that matters little to those who obvious decided that acting in this way is an appropriate, proportionate, and/or legitimate expression. In my view what one must guard against, both as an individual and as a society, is the inclination to let our outrage and indignation at such cowardly acts to motivate us towards a reciprocal use of violence.

THWOTH wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I agree, there is no motive that can justify killing over 80 people. My thoughts are with all the people of Norway.

Unfortunately there are all too many 'motivations' to what is seen as a justified or necessary use of violence. We might note that such motivations are ill-formed or spurious, or the product of a delusion or some other form of irrationality, but that matters little to those who obvious decided that acting in this way is an appropriate, proportionate, and/or legitimate expression. In my view what one must guard against, both as an individual and as a society, is the inclination to let our outrage and indignation at such cowardly acts to motivate us towards a reciprocal use of violence.

Of course.
I wonder if this sort of thing would happen in a world without religion? The news here seems to be saying that he was a right-wing neo-Nazi type. How much does religion have to do with that attitude?

Juliuseizure wrote:

Rumraket wrote:

Juliuseizure wrote:If he didn't attack liberals, saying he was angry at liberals is as relevant as saying he enjoyed marmalade on his toast. Given the propensity for atrocities to be attributed to Islam this is a particularly sensitive topic and the media should be extra-wary of using the Islam justification. Do you understand what I'm saying? He didn't bomb a mosque.

Alright, I get what you are saying. If it was stated that he only despised muslims then that is certainly a mistake. It seems from what can be gathered at this moment, his motivations were to go after what he saw as "enablers" of some supposed "islamification" of Norway and the west in general.

I haven't heard enough to point the dirty end of the stick at Islamophobia yet. Maybe you're right.....but I hope you're wrong. West versus Islam = no winner, only losers.

I went on a family holiday to Norway when I was 7. I've got a scar on my hand from mis-handling a saw when cutting firewood there. I remember salmon is the best food in the world and it is so cheap there! I've got tears in my eyes.

Right wing in Scandinavia usually means people opposed to immigration. Either totally or from non-western countries.
Left wing (social demokrats et al) usually do not want as strict immigration policy as right wing.
Extreme right wing (and chrisitians) therefor see left wing as enemies threatening the "Scandinavian way of life".
Voila....... instant potential domestic terrorism.

Should be noted that just a few days ago a right wing extremist was arrested in Denmark. Bomb squad was called in due to a substantial amount of "chemicals" at his address.
And in may another right wing extremist was arrested for the murder of two people. Also in Denmark.

The news agencies and officials have tried to down tone the amount of right wing extremism i Scandinavia. Unfortunately they are proven wrong time and again.

But at this magnitude....... I have nausea.

Agrippina wrote:I wonder if this sort of thing would happen in a world without religion? The news here seems to be saying that he was a right-wing neo-Nazi type. How much does religion have to do with that attitude?

I don't know, but people who act like this always claim moral authority and righteousness for their action, whether that's religiously authorised or just seen as necessary to bring about their political vision.

Globe wrote:But at this magnitude....... I have nausea.

We share it Globe.

rEvolutionist wrote:When I clicked on that link, the account I heard was from a 16 year old girl. She was incredibly calm when describing the fact that she saw people being killed. I hope it's just a case of shock that is keeping her from expressing her emotions, and she will be able to properly deal with it soon.

By the way, I think she mentioned in there that the shooting might have been going on for an hour or so. If that's so, what the hell were the police doing in all that time? Maybe her sense of time was thrown out by the trauma of it all.

The account on BBC News came from Adrian Pracon: excerpt here.

Can only echo the respect for the Norwegian response. Calm above and beyond. Incredible.

I wonder what will be done with this maniac.. Will he have his own prison especially made for him. Who can be trusted to protect his stupid ass.

THWOTH wrote:

Globe wrote:But at this magnitude....... I have nausea.

We share it Globe.

My brother, his wife and their 3 children were exploring Downtown Oslo yesterday.
I was a shaking wreck until they reported that they were back at the hotel and all well.

Breivik was a member of the right wing party Frp for seven years(1999-2006), and an active member of the local youth department in Oslo(FrpU) of the same party for ten years (1997 to 2007).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party’s_Youth_(Norway)

How do you go from being active with youths, to killing 84 youths from a different party?
This is clearly a sick fuck.

DoctorE wrote:I wonder what will be done with this maniac.. Will he have his own prison especially made for him. Who can be trusted to protect his stupid ass.

Being vindictive is not a nice trait, but I hope they lock this fucker up in a regular prison with other inmates.
The rest of his life will be a walking, sleepless hell.

I feel like getting on some Tea Party sites and asking them about their Christian God and his morals. If this was a Muslim guy, they'd be foaming at the mouth right now.

210karman wrote:

Weaver wrote:

210karman wrote:

Why is that ?

It appears the quote string got messed up - what were you asking?

I was asking why after John P. M. wrote that undetonated explosives had been found on the island you wrote "crap".

Because it is an indicator of a more complex attack profile, indicating greater sophistication. I wasn't annoyed that they found them undetonated - obviously that's good news - but it makes the whole job a lot harder for the responding security and rescue forces to deal with the situation when there's UXO (unexploded ordnance) in the area.

Globe wrote:
Right wing in Scandinavia usually means people opposed to immigration. Either totally or from non-western countries.

Immigration is far more public enemy number 1 than Islam in the UK too...where I live anti-polish sentiment rules the roost. I think perhaps attribution to Islamophobia is in fact misplaced in this case. Just the simple issue of immigration to reckon with then....where's the emoticon.


, I typed in "yawn" in colons and the emoticon appeared.

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the reason he lost sanity is 'cos he didn't have a girlfriend.

OK, some thoughts now that the situation is becoming more clear.

1) The bomb (car bomb?) in Oslo was pretty big. Either a timer or remote activation to let the suspect get away. Demonstrates at least a bit of sophistication in a couple areas.

2) UXO in a number of locations - shows a much more complex plan, though possibly some failure to construct effective devices. Between 1) and 2) there are a lot of questions about how and where this individual (or possibly groups he's associated with) gained their explosives and initiators.

3) I'm hearing reports that a "machine pistol" was used - do shooting clubs in Norway allow Glock-18s? That's about the only gun that would fit the description ...

4) This attack provides total justification for various National and International security agencies being concerned about right-wing extremist violence during periods of economic instability.

5) Enjoy watching the right-wing mouth-frothers shift from trying to blame everything on all of Islam, and claiming that the only response is to kill them all for the actions of a few, to blaming everything on this sole individual, employing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy on his religious preference, and absolving themselves for violent rhetoric by saying that one crazy person shouldn't reflect negatively on the whole.

Juliuseizure wrote:OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the reason he lost sanity is 'cos he didn't have a girlfriend.

There's a guideline we use in the Army - "Once you've reached the bottom of your hole, stop digging."

Perhaps you were trying to be funny. This isn't the time or place. Again.