Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1281  Postby NineBerry » Jul 15, 2013 8:33 pm

Collector1337 wrote:And what evidence is there that Zimmerman attacked Martin? Zimmerman is the one with the documented injuries.

If there was evidence that Zimmerman had physically attacked Martin then it would have been in the trial, but there is no such evidence.


There is no substantial proof either way. That's why both sides shouldn't discuss as if they know what happened. We can't know who attacked first.
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Re: Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

#1282  Postby Warren Dew » Jul 15, 2013 8:34 pm

Byron wrote:Judging by the prosecutorial horrorshow at his trial, with star billing given to a barely-coherent witness who causally used racial slurs and incriminated the alleged victim of the same, and forensics that corroborated the defense account to the letter, the original assessment was correct. This should never have gone to trial.

It's also a strong argument for incorporating the grand jury requirement of the 5th amendment against the states. Doing that would address some of the actual racist abuses of our criminal justice system against blacks, unlike the persecution of Zimmerman in this trial.

Byron wrote:
purplerat wrote:It's an issue across the country as a whole. I didn't mean specifically this police department or DA nor did I mean that a black George Zimmerman should have been prosecuted this way. But there are piles of evidence regarding racial imbalance in the US criminal justice system.

But not, it appears, in this instance.

I think the prosecution in this case actually did involve racism - just not racism against blacks.
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Re: Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

#1283  Postby purplerat » Jul 15, 2013 8:37 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
purplerat wrote:Plus as somebody else mentioned earlier when I call Zimmerman fat and out of shape, Zimmerman put on most of his current weight since that night.

The police report had Zimmerman at 200 pounds, which is pretty fat for 5 foot 7. You should have stuck to your guns on that one, since in that case you were actually correct.

I'm 5'7" and over 200lbs since I've put on some weight over the past year. When I was running races and training 5 days a week I weighed no less than 200lbs and could run a 6min mile. In a burst I could easily cover half a mile in less than 3mins and a quarter mile in not much more than a minute. When I ran races I'd regularly blow away young kids you while nice and thin simply didn't train enough. So I'm not convinced that those stats on Zimmerman mean much of anything especially given Martin would not have even gotten a good look at him until they eventually met up.
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Re: Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

#1284  Postby Byron » Jul 15, 2013 8:40 pm

Warren Dew wrote:It's also a strong argument for incorporating the grand jury requirement of the 5th amendment against the states. Doing that would address some of the actual racist abuses of our criminal justice system against blacks, unlike the persecution of Zimmerman in this trial.

Only if it's reformed so it won't "indict a ham-sandwich." Defense council in the room at all times, right of access for the defendant at all sessions, and some independent legal advice from a judge. The theory behind a grand jury is sound enough: the practice can be severely lacking.
I think the prosecution in this case actually did involve racism - just not racism against blacks.

Or cowardice in the face of extreme media and political pressure.
I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
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Re: Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

#1285  Postby Warren Dew » Jul 15, 2013 8:43 pm

Byron wrote:
I think the prosecution in this case actually did involve racism - just not racism against blacks.

Or cowardice in the face of extreme media and political pressure.

I'm including the political pressure as part of the decision making behind the prosecution in the case.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1286  Postby Byron » Jul 15, 2013 8:44 pm

mcgruff wrote:There is no question that Zimmerman deliberately shot and killed Martin. No-one is disputing that.

It should therefore be upon him to prove that he had no choice. If he cannot, he should be convicted of murder.

The first problem Zimmerman has with that is the evidence does not support his story.

He does not have injuries consistent with being punched repeatedly and having his head repeatedly smashed into concrete. His injuries were a handful of minor cuts, scrapes and swelling. He did not have a broken nose. Detective Serino, who spoke with Zimmerman after the incident, has said that he thought Zimmerman's injuries were not consistent with the severe attack Zimmerman claimed to have suffered.

Martin was more or less the same height as Zimmerman (2" taller) but much, much lighter and this also calls into question Zimmerman's claims that he had to escalate to lethal force as a matter of life and death.

Forensics showed that Martin had none of Zimmerman's blood or other genetic material on his hands or under his nails. That is not possible given the description of the incident Zimmerman gave.

Martin's hands were not cut or bruised, again not possible if Zimmerman were telling the truth. There was one tiny abrasion on (I think) the ring finger of his left hand but it wasn't certain if this might have predated the incident. His hands were almost pristine.

Witness evidence was partial and contradictory, and so doesn't tell us much. All we know for sure is that Zimmerman himself killed the main witness.

Zimmerman has already lied to the court about his income. He and his partner had concealed a large sum of cash and Zimmerman had a second passport hidden in a safety deposit box.

Also, Zimmerman did not dare to take the stand. Why would he not, if everything happened just as he described it?

The only possible conclusion is that Zimmerman has lied repeatedly in order to escape punishment. We do not know if Martin threw the first punch, or was first to grab or push, but we can say with a high level of confidence that he did not launch the severe attack that Zimmerman claimed and, of course, he was not armed. Zimmerman alone is responsible for escalating the confrontation to lethal force. He murdered a kid who was only 16 years old a few weeks before and the fact that he got away with it will become a historic miscarriage of justice to rival OJ.

Got sources for this stack of claims?
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Re: Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

#1287  Postby Byron » Jul 15, 2013 8:45 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Byron wrote:Or cowardice in the face of extreme media and political pressure.

I'm including the political pressure as part of the decision making behind the prosecution in the case.

Ah, fair enough.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1288  Postby Weaver » Jul 15, 2013 8:49 pm

Pebble wrote:The reported interaction as recorded on Trayvor Martin's autopsy report suggests a rather different series of events when compared to Zimmerman's later account. Also shooting someone directly 'front to back' is more consistent with this initial account than some one on their back on the ground while shooting someone above them.

" At approximately 1910 hours on 02/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. The resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between the townhouses. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight. Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground. SPD and SPF arrived on the scene. The male was pronounced dead at 1930 hours."

The Medical Examiner who did the autopsy did very poorly on the stand, and was convincingly refuted by an expert witness brought in by the defense, who showed that in his professional opinion the wounds were consistent with Martin being on top of Zimmerman when the round was fired.

Really - you have to acknowledge everything that came out at trial, not just the prosecution side of things.
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Re: Boy Killed by Neighborhood Watch

#1289  Postby purplerat » Jul 15, 2013 8:51 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Byron wrote:
I think the prosecution in this case actually did involve racism - just not racism against blacks.

Or cowardice in the face of extreme media and political pressure.

I'm including the political pressure as part of the decision making behind the prosecution in the case.

I don't necessarily disagree but I do think you have to realize that the political pressure was largely driven by the perception of criminal injustice against blacks. It's not as if racism against blacks was a non-factor in how this issue was handled in regards to the political pressure you mention.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1290  Postby Pebble » Jul 15, 2013 9:02 pm

Weaver wrote:
The Medical Examiner who did the autopsy did very poorly on the stand, and was convincingly refuted by an expert witness brought in by the defense, who showed that in his professional opinion the wounds were consistent with Martin being on top of Zimmerman when the round was fired.

Really - you have to acknowledge everything that came out at trial, not just the prosecution side of things.


I do not have access to the entire trial transcripts. But the autopsy report is not a prosecution document, it is an expert report of fact. The interpretation of said facts is what is challenged, not the facts themselves. What I have reproduced above is written evidence, I do not have access to the full trial transcripts, so I do not know whether the above was shown incorrect or not, have you contradictory evidence?
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1291  Postby Weaver » Jul 15, 2013 9:06 pm

No, the autopsy report is the expert opinion of the ME, subject to challenge by other experts in the field. This autopsy report, and the accompanying testimony of the ME, was crushed on the stand by the Defense expert witness.

From the NY Times article on the reasons for the outcome of the case:

Yet another trouble spot was the testimony of Dr. Shiping Bao, the medical examiner who performed the autopsy on Mr. Martin. On the stand, legal experts said, he came across as befuddled, shuffling through his notes because he could remember so little.

“It was horrific,” said Richard Sharpstein, a prominent Miami criminal defense lawyer. “It was the deadly blow to this case because the case depended on forensic evidence to contradict or disprove George Zimmerman’s story.”

The performance was the opposite of that by Dr. Vincent Di Maio, a nationally recognized forensic pathologist, who took the stand for the defense. Polished and concise, Dr. Di Maio said the evidence and injuries to Mr. Zimmerman were consistent with the defense’s account: that Mr. Martin was leaning over the defendant when he was shot.

“When Bao completely imploded, that was check,” Mr. Sharpstein said. “When Di Maio testified, it was checkmate.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us/in ... le.html?hp
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1292  Postby Tennessee John » Jul 15, 2013 9:11 pm

mcgruff wrote:There is no question that Zimmerman deliberately shot and killed Martin. No-one is disputing that.

It should therefore be upon him to prove that he had no choice. If he cannot, he should be convicted of murder.

The first problem Zimmerman has with that is the evidence does not support his story.

He does not have injuries consistent with being punched repeatedly and having his head repeatedly smashed into concrete. His injuries were a handful of minor cuts, scrapes and swelling. He did not have a broken nose. Detective Serino, who spoke with Zimmerman after the incident, has said that he thought Zimmerman's injuries were not consistent with the severe attack Zimmerman claimed to have suffered.

Martin was more or less the same height as Zimmerman (2" taller) but much, much lighter and this also calls into question Zimmerman's claims that he had to escalate to lethal force as a matter of life and death.

Forensics showed that Martin had none of Zimmerman's blood or other genetic material on his hands or under his nails. That is not possible given the description of the incident Zimmerman gave.

Martin's hands were not cut or bruised, again not possible if Zimmerman were telling the truth. There was one tiny abrasion on (I think) the ring finger of his left hand but it wasn't certain if this might have predated the incident. His hands were almost pristine.

Witness evidence was partial and contradictory, and so doesn't tell us much. All we know for sure is that Zimmerman himself killed the main witness.

Zimmerman has already lied to the court about his income. He and his partner had concealed a large sum of cash and Zimmerman had a second passport hidden in a safety deposit box.

Also, Zimmerman did not dare to take the stand. Why would he not, if everything happened just as he described it?

The only possible conclusion is that Zimmerman has lied repeatedly in order to escape punishment. We do not know if Martin threw the first punch, or was first to grab or push, but we can say with a high level of confidence that he did not launch the severe attack that Zimmerman claimed and, of course, he was not armed. Zimmerman alone is responsible for escalating the confrontation to lethal force. He murdered a kid who was only 16 years old a few weeks before and the fact that he got away with it will become a historic miscarriage of justice to rival OJ.


Really? You should have been on the prosecution! You know so much more than they did apparently!
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1293  Postby Weaver » Jul 15, 2013 9:20 pm

mcgruff wrote:
Also, Zimmerman did not dare to take the stand. Why would he not, if everything happened just as he described it?

No.

Zimmerman did not choose to take the stand, consistent with his rights and advice of counsel. There is nothing about "daring" about it - the criminal justice system isn't about who is most daring, who exposes their side to the most risk yet perseveres in the end.

He let his counsel argue the case, and he was acquitted of the charges he was facing. That is all anyone knows - you cannot draw conclusions about his supposed motives based on his actions.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1294  Postby Pebble » Jul 15, 2013 9:43 pm

Weaver wrote:No, the autopsy report is the expert opinion of the ME, subject to challenge by other experts in the field. This autopsy report, and the accompanying testimony of the ME, was crushed on the stand by the Defense expert witness.

From the NY Times article on the reasons for the outcome of the case:

Yet another trouble spot was the testimony of Dr. Shiping Bao, the medical examiner who performed the autopsy on Mr. Martin. On the stand, legal experts said, he came across as befuddled, shuffling through his notes because he could remember so little.

“It was horrific,” said Richard Sharpstein, a prominent Miami criminal defense lawyer. “It was the deadly blow to this case because the case depended on forensic evidence to contradict or disprove George Zimmerman’s story.”

The performance was the opposite of that by Dr. Vincent Di Maio, a nationally recognized forensic pathologist, who took the stand for the defense. Polished and concise, Dr. Di Maio said the evidence and injuries to Mr. Zimmerman were consistent with the defense’s account: that Mr. Martin was leaning over the defendant when he was shot.

“When Bao completely imploded, that was check,” Mr. Sharpstein said. “When Di Maio testified, it was checkmate.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us/in ... le.html?hp


That is just a news paper report not direct evidence. What is claimed is that Di Maio showed that it was possible that martin could have been above zimmerman when shot, not that he was. The question was the initial reported interaction suggested 1. that zimmerman confronted martin - i.e. he was not attacked when walking back to his car/truck. 2 That zimmerman shot martin in the chest and he fell down - not that he got up off him and fell elsewhere.

My question is whether this initial report was shown to be incorrect?
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1295  Postby NineBerry » Jul 15, 2013 9:47 pm

So, one forensic expert has a better performance before the crowd than the other. One is a retired professional who has a look at photos one year after the incident, the other is an active professional who actually examined the body. One has given several interviews during the last years whining about the bad quality of forensics these days.

Two different expert opinions. I wouldn't know which one to trust.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1296  Postby Weaver » Jul 15, 2013 9:53 pm

In the end, it's not for the entire population to understand all the details of the trial, particularly if they haven't made the efforts to gain access to them. It's up to the jury - and the jury in this case made their decision based on the evidence they were shown. Second guessing them based on much less than the info they were given is silly.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1297  Postby Steve » Jul 15, 2013 10:19 pm

Weaver wrote:In the end, it's not for the entire population to understand all the details of the trial, particularly if they haven't made the efforts to gain access to them. It's up to the jury - and the jury in this case made their decision based on the evidence they were shown. Second guessing them based on much less than the info they were given is silly.


Not so fast. The law is fickle, but from 3000 miles away it is pretty simple to see who was responsible. If Trayvon killed Zimmerman the self defense argument would be a slam dunk. Zimmerman killing Trayvon really demands some solid proof. That newspaper report lays out how the fickleness worked for Zimmerman. The Jury does not get to cross examine - they just call the plays as they are played. You win some and you lose some. I think Zimmerman is lucky, so far.

The racial element enters through the vigor, intensity and thoroughness of the gathering and presenting of evidence. I think we can all accept that blacks get judged as scary and suspect, by and large, regardless of the facts. I understand the initial gathering of evidence and seeking of witnesses was less than it coulod have been. If Trayvon was a young white male and Zimmerman a black security guard on a side job I think the case would more than likely had a different conclusion.

THAT is how racism works. Yeah, the law is fickle. Some how blacks get stuck on the wrong side. Like this time.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1298  Postby Peter Brown » Jul 15, 2013 10:38 pm

Weaver wrote:Stand Your Ground law has no bearing on the Zimmerman/Martin case - it was not part of the defense.

Reasonable requirement was exactly what the defense argued - and either the jury accepted it, or felt that the prosecution was so flawed (quite possible) that there existed reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was guilty.


I disagree.
Stand your ground defined the evidence presented and the possible verdict.
Reasonable grounds is just a straw man media talking point, no witnesses so it was a forgone conclusion not guilty has to given when the accused pleads not guilty. All the accused has to say I was attacked, I was scared for my life, and without a witness you can not prove beyond doubt otherwise.
Stand your ground removes murder, manslaughter or any lesser finding when there are no witnesses. Its a bad law, and poorly framed even if you give the person who wrote it the benefit of the doubt it was written with good intents, ie the homeowner at home shooting the bugler.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1299  Postby Byron » Jul 15, 2013 10:52 pm

Peter Brown wrote:[...]
Stand your ground defined the evidence presented and the possible verdict.
Reasonable grounds is just a straw man media talking point, no witnesses so it was a forgone conclusion not guilty has to given when the accused pleads not guilty. All the accused has to say I was attacked, I was scared for my life, and without a witness you can not prove beyond doubt otherwise.
Stand your ground removes murder, manslaughter or any lesser finding when there are no witnesses. Its a bad law, and poorly framed even if you give the person who wrote it the benefit of the doubt it was written with good intents, ie the homeowner at home shooting the bugler.

Stand your ground is irrelevant to this case, as Zimmerman was unable to retreat.

Stand your ground also makes no difference to the fact that a person who kills in self-defense is often the only witness.

If the state had been able to discredit Zimmerman's account, he could have been convicted. Unfortunately for them, the forensics backed him, and their main witness was a rambling disaster on the stand, whose only accomplishment was to establish that Trayvon Martin liked to use racial slurs.

It's hard to think of any fair system that'd have allowed this pileup of a case to lead to a solid conviction.
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Re: The message of Trayvon Martin

#1300  Postby Warren Dew » Jul 15, 2013 10:53 pm

Weaver wrote:
Pebble wrote:The reported interaction as recorded on Trayvor Martin's autopsy report suggests a rather different series of events when compared to Zimmerman's later account. Also shooting someone directly 'front to back' is more consistent with this initial account than some one on their back on the ground while shooting someone above them.

" At approximately 1910 hours on 02/26/2012, 911 dispatchers received a call from a resident of the complex. The resident advised of a B/M who was at the complex between the townhouses. The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight. Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground. SPD and SPF arrived on the scene. The male was pronounced dead at 1930 hours."

The Medical Examiner who did the autopsy did very poorly on the stand, and was convincingly refuted by an expert witness brought in by the defense, who showed that in his professional opinion the wounds were consistent with Martin being on top of Zimmerman when the round was fired.

Really - you have to acknowledge everything that came out at trial, not just the prosecution side of things.

Not to mention that the paragraph quoted by Pebble talks about things that are clearly outside the expertise of a medical examiner. The medical examiner should be talking about the body, not about what happened during a fight he wasn't present for.

It makes it sound like the medical examiner started with hearsay reports on what happened, and did his examination on that basis - not very good practice.
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