Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

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Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#1  Postby Alan B » Feb 12, 2019 12:17 pm

I have often thought that the reasons put forward to leave the EU are a bit simplistic, such as 'Sovereignty', 'looking after our own borders', 'immigration', EU 'Nanny-State', etc. and could be just window-dressing to hide the 'real' purpose.
Broadly speaking, I feel, the Brexit sections of the populace can be split into two parts: the followers and the manipulators.
The manipulators appear to be those with political and corporative power who stand to lose financially if the UK were to stay in the EU.
The reason for this would be a new EU regulation: "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive" which came into force 1st Jan 2019. It was proposed in January 2016 when Cameron was in power.
The 'followers' would just believe the stories they were told as long as the stories agreed with their Right-Wing isolationist mind-set of pre-conceived ideas.
Forget Border controls and immigration, (although, as an island, they are important), the real reasons for Brexit are to avoid paying tax due by the Tax Haven and tax evasion addicts - the Rees-Moggs and Amazons of this world.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#2  Postby zulumoose » Feb 12, 2019 12:21 pm

Yeah Scot has mentioned this quite a few times.
It seems to me that if a good case could be made for this being the main motivation, remainers have already missed the boat, it is too late to raise the red flag now.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#3  Postby Alan B » Feb 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Yep. Scot sent me the link on the 'other forum'...
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#4  Postby I'm With Stupid » Feb 12, 2019 1:17 pm

Reminds me this bit by Ian Hislop about Rees-Mogg.

There's been a real failure of the news and satire recently with these ridiculous character politicians that has enabled them to hide behind the fact that everything written about them is about their outrageous characters rather than the genuine scandal of what they're doing, like the details of Rees-Mogg's investment fund barely getting mentioned above the comments and jokes about him being old-fashioned. Boris Johnson mastered this a long time ago, and Trump won the presidency off the back of it.

I remember when Theresa May came back with her first Brexit deal from the EU and the satire shows were absolutely full of hilarious jokes about how shit it was and how useless she was. The news was the same. It was about a week before I realised that I didn't know a single detail of what people's objections were, and it was a good 4 or 5 news articles later before I finally found one that actually explained what the Irish backstop meant. It's worth mentioning that Hislop is as guilty as the rest of them on HIGNFY. I don't know if the producers are dumbing it down, but they speak far more about superficial things than they used to. He used to always whip out some business or political scandal back in the day. Nowadays, I rarely see it.

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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#5  Postby fisherman » Feb 12, 2019 1:35 pm

The first reading of the EU Referendum Act was in May 2015 before the proposal date you gave, so unlikely that the tax directive was the reason.

Tax regulations were perhaps symptomatic of the issue but may not be the source as such. The Euro crisis highlighted the need for further integration and regulation among all member states, that would require bring the city closer to the ECB. Think there had been an attempt to force Euro clearing from London into a Euro zone state, which failed in the courts, but the trajectory of change was there. The opt out the UK had to remain out of the Euro would I guess, depending on the changes required, at some point become detrimental through divergence in economic policy. There was talk of direct financial transfers for example.

Any treaty changes would be an issue following Cameron's introduced of a legislative lock to hold a referendum on any further EU treaty. At some point there was going to be a political crisis with that in place.

There is also an argument that Euro crisis created high unemployed in the euro zone and resulted in immigration increases to the UK where work was plentiful. This perception of mass immigration and the effect on wages became a catalyst for the domestic political pressures to increase to do something.

Migrant crisis in 2012 is another. Highly pressured heart breaking circumstances, but the rules do apply in the EU and yet Merkel, lets be honest, was able to unilaterally change the rules to open the border then close it in a deal with Turkey.

The pressure UKIP were exerting on the political status quo feed off that.

It was likely a range of events peculiar to the UK's half in half out status, that got us to the point of the referendum.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#6  Postby ronmcd » Feb 12, 2019 1:42 pm

And 40 years of Tory infighting over Europe.

Thing is, nothing has really changed between Cameron in 2015, and John Major's time as PM 25 years ago when he called his cabinet colleagues bastards and resigned, challenging them to put up or shut up. If there had been a referendum then, the same things could have happened, the same result, the same splits.

It all comes down to Cameron being stupid/arrogant enough to call the referendum. Call a referendum if you support the change, otherwise it's a massive risk as you can lose.

Similarly, no politician in UK should ever call for a referendum on the death penalty. The same thing would result.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#7  Postby Calilasseia » Feb 12, 2019 2:44 pm

But of course, that anti tax avoidance directive gave rich Tories with offshore slush funds, a reason to launch the current débacle with renewed vigour ...
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#8  Postby Alan C » Feb 12, 2019 6:12 pm

Venal, corrupt, bludging fuckers.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#9  Postby Alan B » Feb 13, 2019 10:50 am

fisherman wrote:The first reading of the EU Referendum Act was in May 2015 before the proposal date you gave, so unlikely that the tax directive was the reason.

The contents of the proposal must have been discussed in the previous years, so member states would be have been well aware of the implications. Even the UK may have been part of the preliminary discussions... (Perhaps to 'get the lay of the land' :whistle: )
Last edited by Alan B on Feb 13, 2019 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#10  Postby Alan B » Feb 13, 2019 10:55 am

In the light of this directive, the escape to Singapore by Dyson looks suspicious (whatever his stated reasons are).
Are there any other companies/organisations in the EU that seem to have taken this route to avoid this directive?
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#11  Postby fisherman » Feb 13, 2019 11:45 am

Alan B wrote:
fisherman wrote:The first reading of the EU Referendum Act was in May 2015 before the proposal date you gave, so unlikely that the tax directive was the reason.

The contents of the proposal must have been discussed in the previous years, so member states would be have been well aware of the implications. Even the UK may have been part of the preliminary discussions... (Perhaps to 'get the lay of the land' :whistle: )


I'm not convinced the referendum was born from opposition of anti-tax. Even earlier at the start of the Coalition government, the first major clash Cameron had with the EU was in Dec 2011 where he veto'd a treaty aimed at creating euro stability (read more integration) linked here. Comments from Cameron resulted in speculation on UK's future in the EU.
Last night the prime minister went further, suggesting that Britain's membership of the EU was no longer a given. "Membership is in our interests. I've always said, if that's the case, I'll support our membership," he said, appearing to query whether being in the EU would remain in Britain's interests.


A year later in Jan 2013 Cameron announced a plan to get a new settlement with the EU followed by an in out referendum.

Later that year, the debate was starting, with this HoC Foreign Affairs report to consider the UK's relationship with the EU. A direct response to Cameron's proposal of a renegotiation and new settlement earlier that year. And that renegotiation was itself a reaction to events that the EU was already dealing with, steming from the financial and euro crisis', and also problems that Cameron himself was creating (as linked at start).

The report is interesting and goes into the expected direction of travel of the EU and tries to grapple with what is in the UK's best interests; could UK remain in an EU of associated member states, or go all in and join the euro, or come out of the EU.

I find it hard to imagine when a debate of this nature could have been conducted with out drawing heat, but certainly during the ongoing crisis which brought it to a head, it was the worst time.
Last edited by fisherman on Feb 13, 2019 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#12  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 13, 2019 5:37 pm

fisherman wrote:The first reading of the EU Referendum Act was in May 2015 before the proposal date you gave, so unlikely that the tax directive was the reason.

Tax regulations were perhaps symptomatic of the issue but may not be the source as such. The Euro crisis highlighted the need for further integration and regulation among all member states, that would require bring the city closer to the ECB. Think there had been an attempt to force Euro clearing from London into a Euro zone state, which failed in the courts, but the trajectory of change was there. The opt out the UK had to remain out of the Euro would I guess, depending on the changes required, at some point become detrimental through divergence in economic policy. There was talk of direct financial transfers for example.

Any treaty changes would be an issue following Cameron's introduced of a legislative lock to hold a referendum on any further EU treaty. At some point there was going to be a political crisis with that in place.

There is also an argument that Euro crisis created high unemployed in the euro zone and resulted in immigration increases to the UK where work was plentiful. This perception of mass immigration and the effect on wages became a catalyst for the domestic political pressures to increase to do something.

Migrant crisis in 2012 is another. Highly pressured heart breaking circumstances, but the rules do apply in the EU and yet Merkel, lets be honest, was able to unilaterally change the rules to open the border then close it in a deal with Turkey.

The pressure UKIP were exerting on the political status quo feed off that.

It was likely a range of events peculiar to the UK's half in half out status, that got us to the point of the referendum.


The tax directive dates from 28 January 2016. That was its official date but Brussel being Brussel it would have been well known before hand. Such a proposal takes months even years to clarify and present.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#13  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 13, 2019 5:50 pm

Of course Cameron would have played it that way. You dont think he would come out and state we dont like the new tax laws and are getting out. Of course he was discussing the UK position in the EU. Those tax laws were taking shape.

What was basically wrong with the relationship of the UK and the EU. Nothing new that has not happened in the last forty years. The only thing was the tax directive. That was explosive stuff and going to cost the Brexiteers millions of money that should have never been theirs. That was the only reason to leave. The rest has been discussed so often we in the EU knew the UK gripes.

BTW here is the link here about the tax directive:

The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#14  Postby fisherman » Feb 13, 2019 6:14 pm

Any evidence supporting your theory that this is the reason the UK changed 40 years of foreign policy?
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#15  Postby Alan B » Feb 13, 2019 6:57 pm

None whatsoever. But the Brexiteers with the most money to lose seem to be shouting the loudest. Could be just a coincidence - but a rather convenient one...

Perhaps starting to look for evidence by compiling a list of those who would lose and those who would not lose money if we stayed in the EU. :ask:
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#16  Postby Alan B » Feb 13, 2019 7:17 pm

Ah yes. "...40 years of foreign policy." which has led to this.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#17  Postby fisherman » Feb 13, 2019 7:27 pm

This is the eariest date I can find starting an offical EU process on tax avoidance and planning, from a Dec 2014 EU Council meeting. That's almost 2 years after Cameron discussed looking for a New Settlement with the EU.

There is an urgent need to advance efforts in the fight against tax avoidance and aggressive tax planning, both at the global and EU levels. Stressing the importance of transparency, the European Council looks forward to the Commission’s proposal on the automatic exchange of information on tax rulings in the EU.
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#18  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 14, 2019 10:36 am

Official process. Do you know how long the unofficial process takes place in a building and institution the size of the EU?
From day 1 of rumours?
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#19  Postby Alan B » Feb 14, 2019 11:17 am

Enough of Cameron. He's old news. Theresa May, on the other hand, mentioned she would address the Tax Haven issue when she was electioneering. She appears to have done nothing, so far.

Maybe it's because her husband has his sticky little fingers in the Tax Haven pie?
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Re: Brexit and the EU "The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive"

#20  Postby fisherman » Feb 14, 2019 11:28 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Official process. Do you know how long the unofficial process takes place in a building and institution the size of the EU?
From day 1 of rumours?


Hard to take this seriously if you are now talking about unofficial rumours.
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