Brexit

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Re: Brexit

#1001  Postby mrjonno » Sep 29, 2017 11:08 am

Regional differences only really matter in a country when people identify more with their region than the country as a whole. When that happens you basically have a failed state which the UK is on the brink of becoming with people identifying with being Scottish, English, Irish more than being a citizen of the UK
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Re: Brexit

#1002  Postby ronmcd » Sep 29, 2017 11:52 am

fisherman wrote:
Imp wrote:The referendum result where NI voted to remain you mean?

Sure, if you can show me where the referendum stated it would reflect regional differences.

The UK and EU are currently trying to do something specific and unique for the electorate (region, nation, whatever) in Northern Ireland. So, clearly that electorate have some status different from 'UK voted for brexit', otherwise why is everybody trying?

In that context, what they voted for is clearly important, and relevant.

(tartan elephant in the room shuffles nervously in the corner)
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Re: Brexit

#1003  Postby fisherman » Sep 29, 2017 11:58 am

ronmcd wrote:
fisherman wrote:
Imp wrote:The referendum result where NI voted to remain you mean?

Sure, if you can show me where the referendum stated it would reflect regional differences.

The UK and EU are currently trying to do something specific and unique for the electorate (region, nation, whatever) in Northern Ireland. So, clearly that electorate have some status different from 'UK voted for brexit', otherwise why is everybody trying?

In that context, what they voted for is clearly important, and relevant.

(tartan elephant in the room shuffles nervously in the corner)



Not even the EU is trying to say this special arrangement for NI is because they voted remain, it's fundamentally about the peace process.
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Re: Brexit

#1004  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 29, 2017 12:13 pm

ronmcd wrote:
fisherman wrote:
Imp wrote:The referendum result where NI voted to remain you mean?

Sure, if you can show me where the referendum stated it would reflect regional differences.

The UK and EU are currently trying to do something specific and unique for the electorate (region, nation, whatever) in Northern Ireland. So, clearly that electorate have some status different from 'UK voted for brexit', otherwise why is everybody trying?

In that context, what they voted for is clearly important, and relevant.

(tartan elephant in the room shuffles nervously in the corner)


Entirely agree Ron. What is good for the goose...
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Re: Brexit

#1005  Postby ronmcd » Sep 29, 2017 12:28 pm

fisherman wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
fisherman wrote:
Imp wrote:The referendum result where NI voted to remain you mean?

Sure, if you can show me where the referendum stated it would reflect regional differences.

The UK and EU are currently trying to do something specific and unique for the electorate (region, nation, whatever) in Northern Ireland. So, clearly that electorate have some status different from 'UK voted for brexit', otherwise why is everybody trying?

In that context, what they voted for is clearly important, and relevant.

(tartan elephant in the room shuffles nervously in the corner)



Not even the EU is trying to say this special arrangement for NI is because they voted remain, it's fundamentally about the peace process.

Of course, that's not my point, my point is the fact there is a unique political situation to be addressed as part of brexit gives lie to the idea we are a homogeneous political voting block. It doesn't hold up, when in other respects "regions" are to be treated differently.

And although it wasn't my point, it is also quite clear that if NI had also voted to leave in the referendum, there would not be the weight behind the attempt to find a differential settlement.
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Re: Brexit

#1006  Postby ronmcd » Sep 29, 2017 12:32 pm

We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.
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Re: Brexit

#1007  Postby fisherman » Sep 29, 2017 12:38 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Not in my papers. Maybe the Scum and Wail.

Britain needs a 'miracle' to meet deadline for Brexit deal, says Jean-Claude Juncker

The British have no proposal on NI border except the sci-fi one.

Why would NI not stay in the EU? It receives vast subsidies from the EU which the UK would be unable to pay. The two countries are so integrated. A large percentage of the NI have RoI passports. Ireland would never join the UK.

Any special status NI will get it will be de-facto part of the EU. Scotland will want the same status and maybe even Wales or Northern England might demand it.

Barnier has already a mandate to discuss NI.


NI would IMO leave EU because it is politically necessary for the UK.

So long as the border is at the ports there remains no political necessity for the EU to require that NI remain in the EU. So it seems reasonable that a suitable treaty would satisfy both the EU requirements and the UK political requirements, thus allowing progress.
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Re: Brexit

#1008  Postby Sendraks » Sep 29, 2017 1:03 pm

mrjonno wrote:Regional differences only really matter in a country when people identify more with their region than the country as a whole. When that happens you basically have a failed state which the UK is on the brink of becoming with people identifying with being Scottish, English, Irish more than being a citizen of the UK


There are plenty of people who are sufficiently tribal that they identify with their county, rather than being "English." If their county identity neatly overlaps with that of a preferred sports team, so much the better.
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Re: Brexit

#1009  Postby fisherman » Sep 29, 2017 1:21 pm

ronmcd wrote:We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.

Hugely unsatisfactory. I just don't see how the unique circumstances around NI can translate to anything meaningful for other regions.
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Re: Brexit

#1010  Postby mrjonno » Sep 29, 2017 1:42 pm

Sendraks wrote:
mrjonno wrote:Regional differences only really matter in a country when people identify more with their region than the country as a whole. When that happens you basically have a failed state which the UK is on the brink of becoming with people identifying with being Scottish, English, Irish more than being a citizen of the UK


There are plenty of people who are sufficiently tribal that they identify with their county, rather than being "English." If their county identity neatly overlaps with that of a preferred sports team, so much the better.


You can have multiple identities but when that is subset overrules the larger group (ie being English or Scottish being more important than being British) you don't have a country any more. Nothing wrong of course with a country splitting up and that probably makes sense. Then again not really sure London has that much in common with Hull either
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Re: Brexit

#1011  Postby Tracer Tong » Sep 29, 2017 3:51 pm

ronmcd wrote:We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.


The areas in which devolved bodies, such as the Scottish Parliament, are authoritative is set out in law. In the case of the Scotland Act, international relations, including with the EU, are explicitly reserved matters. A single UK leave vote is therefore all that is required.
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Re: Brexit

#1012  Postby ronmcd » Sep 29, 2017 6:36 pm

fisherman wrote:
ronmcd wrote:We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.

Hugely unsatisfactory. I just don't see how the unique circumstances around NI can translate to anything meaningful for other regions.

The only relevance would be in proving differential agreements may be possible, with the political will.
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Re: Brexit

#1013  Postby ronmcd » Sep 29, 2017 6:38 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.


The areas in which devolved bodies, such as the Scottish Parliament, are authoritative is set out in law. In the case of the Scotland Act, international relations, including with the EU, are explicitly reserved matters. A single UK leave vote is therefore all that is required.

No argument from me, a single leave UK vote is all that is legally required. That does not mean it is a satisfactory outcome.
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Re: Brexit

#1014  Postby Tracer Tong » Sep 29, 2017 7:57 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.


The areas in which devolved bodies, such as the Scottish Parliament, are authoritative is set out in law. In the case of the Scotland Act, international relations, including with the EU, are explicitly reserved matters. A single UK leave vote is therefore all that is required.

No argument from me, a single leave UK vote is all that is legally required. That does not mean it is a satisfactory outcome.


But the outcome is Britain's departure from the EU. How could that not be satisfactory?

:naughty2:
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Re: Brexit

#1015  Postby OlivierK » Sep 29, 2017 9:32 pm

Sendraks wrote:There are plenty of people who are sufficiently tribal that they identify with their county, rather than being "English." If their county identity neatly overlaps with that of a preferred sports team, so much the better.

It's always seemed odd to me that a country like England with such strong regional identities hasn't adopted a more federal system of government. Having said that, I live in a federal system, whose faults are sometimes extremely frustrating (non-uniform laws, endless buck-passing between state and federal governments over funding of national infrastructure within a state), so I recognise the fact that federalism is not a panacea for regional grievances, but it still seems it could fit well in England as part of a federal UK.
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Re: Brexit

#1016  Postby ronmcd » Sep 29, 2017 10:13 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:We voted as a UK to leave, so just accept it, it's just one country.

Well, clearly not. When so much else is accepted as being different, in blocks we accept and legislate for differently already (devolution, law, political ...difficulties), then it is at least arguable that the single UK leave vote is unsatisfactory.


The areas in which devolved bodies, such as the Scottish Parliament, are authoritative is set out in law. In the case of the Scotland Act, international relations, including with the EU, are explicitly reserved matters. A single UK leave vote is therefore all that is required.

No argument from me, a single leave UK vote is all that is legally required. That does not mean it is a satisfactory outcome.


But the outcome is Britain's departure from the EU. How could that not be satisfactory?

:naughty2:

Good to see you agree that Northern Ireland at the very least should remain in EU

:naughty2:
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Re: Brexit

#1017  Postby Tracer Tong » Sep 29, 2017 10:45 pm

Personally, I think it should be done on a constituency basis. Or maybe even by household, actually.
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Re: Brexit

#1018  Postby ronmcd » Sep 30, 2017 8:32 am

OlivierK wrote:
Sendraks wrote:There are plenty of people who are sufficiently tribal that they identify with their county, rather than being "English." If their county identity neatly overlaps with that of a preferred sports team, so much the better.

It's always seemed odd to me that a country like England with such strong regional identities hasn't adopted a more federal system of government. Having said that, I live in a federal system, whose faults are sometimes extremely frustrating (non-uniform laws, endless buck-passing between state and federal governments over funding of national infrastructure within a state), so I recognise the fact that federalism is not a panacea for regional grievances, but it still seems it could fit well in England as part of a federal UK.

Ah, but 'Mother of all Parliaments', idiocyncratic long-winded nonsensical tradition must be maintained etc. It staggers new MP's to Westminster that every vote involves every member squeezing through a physical lobby door to cast their vote, once the usual suspects have been dragged from the many bars, only to troop back in and wait for the final vote to be counted and then announced. And then another vote, troop back out ...

It especially shocks those who have come from other devolved assemblies and Parliaments, where they press fucking buttons on a desk, each vote taking 20 - 30 seconds.

Federalism? IN ENGLAND? To the tower with you, Olivier ;)
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Re: Brexit

#1019  Postby mrjonno » Sep 30, 2017 10:37 am

OlivierK wrote:
Sendraks wrote:There are plenty of people who are sufficiently tribal that they identify with their county, rather than being "English." If their county identity neatly overlaps with that of a preferred sports team, so much the better.

It's always seemed odd to me that a country like England with such strong regional identities hasn't adopted a more federal system of government. Having said that, I live in a federal system, whose faults are sometimes extremely frustrating (non-uniform laws, endless buck-passing between state and federal governments over funding of national infrastructure within a state), so I recognise the fact that federalism is not a panacea for regional grievances, but it still seems it could fit well in England as part of a federal UK.


Scotland and even Wales have far more decentralised power than in the US or any other country in Europe. Northern Ireland does too when its working.

Federalism cannot cover the cracks in identity where parts of the UK do not which to be British but want to be Scottish or Irish.

Wanting to have your own foreign policy and international trade deals isn't federalism its independence and the Scot's should go for it
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Re: Brexit

#1020  Postby ronmcd » Sep 30, 2017 2:13 pm

mrjonno wrote:
Scotland and even Wales have far more decentralised power than in the US or any other country in Europe.

:eh:
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