Brexit

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Re: Brexit

#1041  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 10:46 am

mrjonno wrote:Depends on the context, and in the context of decentralised government, the 'state' of Texas, the 'state' of NSW has the same meaning as the 'nation' of Scotland

Ronmcd do you really want 'federalisation' you want independence?, what not be open about it . You already are federal

No, UK isn't remotely a federal system.
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Re: Brexit

#1042  Postby mrjonno » Oct 03, 2017 10:52 am

What exactly can the federated state/nation Scotland not do that Texas/Bavaria or New South Wales can do?

Texas has its own state military/national guard so thats one, do you want Scotland to have that?
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Re: Brexit

#1043  Postby Teague » Oct 03, 2017 2:39 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
Teague wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Teague wrote:And to think, we were the first to stand up against the Nazi's and now look where we are.


I'm pretty sure 'we' weren't.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarati ... rld_War_II


I’m still pretty sure ‘we’ weren’t.


This is entirely idiotic. I'm pretty sure 95% of people here have a reading age above 3 but for those who don't, I'm glad you're here to be a grammar Nazi.
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Re: Brexit

#1044  Postby Teague » Oct 03, 2017 2:48 pm

OlivierK wrote:
Teague wrote:
OlivierK wrote:
Sendraks wrote:There are plenty of people who are sufficiently tribal that they identify with their county, rather than being "English." If their county identity neatly overlaps with that of a preferred sports team, so much the better.

It's always seemed odd to me that a country like England with such strong regional identities hasn't adopted a more federal system of government. Having said that, I live in a federal system, whose faults are sometimes extremely frustrating (non-uniform laws, endless buck-passing between state and federal governments over funding of national infrastructure within a state), so I recognise the fact that federalism is not a panacea for regional grievances, but it still seems it could fit well in England as part of a federal UK.


No thanks, I like being British because I'm not a closed minded prick. If we can't embrace our kinsmen in 2017 then when the fuck can we? It drives me nuts this whole Brexit thing - the NI question is retarded - retrarded because when they decided to give the plebs the vote they were so stupid they saw none of this coming.

Orrrrrrrrrrr.....

They knew exactly what they were doing, it's a bid for power and to make us more like America so we can have a pay equality gap just like they do and less rights and regulations. I thought Corbyn was ok, he's better than the Tories but ffs, he hates Europe too and we're only 30 miles off the coast!

I'm not sure how a federal system would be incompatible with feeling British. I live in a federal system, and I feel Australian. The fact that a state government decides funding allocations for schools in my region, or even what proportion of the state budget is needed for health/education, etc doesn't change that at all - I really don't have much sense at all of feeling New South Welsh, although I do tend to support my home state in interstate sport. That's about the limit of my state affiliation, and I'm not sure that's a recipe for small-minded-prickishness any more than someone from Somerset following Somerset's cricket team, or a Liverpudlian following the Reds. :dunno:


Well break them up into territories. England, Wales and Scotland.... How many people will identify as British over the one they were born in and are now told they're of that territory.

I'm not sure about Oz or it's history but if it was always there then it's nothing new, it's the norm. However, E,S&W were not always joined, then there's already half of Scotland that identifgy as scottish (going on their referendum here), I'm sure there are plenty of English that are "English" too so adding boundaries highlights differences and could push people into those groups.

Not saying it would happen but there's a chance it would. I mean we leave Europe, then we leave NI... then we leave ourselves... I don't think that's inclusive and it's going to cause more issues down the road but I'm no expert. I didn't think we'd Brexit though I wasn't sure about it, kind of like that uneasy feeling you get before you hear some news.

And this JUST after Scotland decided to stick it out. I mean wtf? Talk about a slap in the face and punching ourselves in the face. I've even been thinking of moving up there so them joining the EU or staying in the EU might clinch it - fuck staying in racists England with it's chemical washed GM food from the US and the loss of civil rights that I'm sure will be coming.
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Re: Brexit

#1045  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 3:13 pm

mrjonno wrote:What exactly can the federated state/nation Scotland not do that Texas/Bavaria or New South Wales can do?

Texas has its own state military/national guard so thats one, do you want Scotland to have that?


Devolution differs from federalism in that the devolved powers of the subnational authority may be temporary and are reversible, ultimately residing with the central government. Thus, the state remains de jure unitary. Legislation creating devolved parliaments or assemblies can be repealed or amended by central government in the same way as any statute. In federal systems, by contrast, sub-unit government is guaranteed in the constitution, so the powers of the sub-units cannot be withdrawn unilaterally by the central government (i.e. without the consent of the sub-units being granted through the process of constitutional amendment). The sub-units therefore have a lower degree of protection under devolution than under federalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution

Seems like a reasonable definition, as demonstrated recently even when we are told by UK parties that something is being written into law with regards to devolution (Sewel Convention) it is proven in court to be a political trick with no legal weight at all. Holyrood, in it's entirely, is utterly disposable.

In terms of what powers, a simple google search:

Some of the powers delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution include the following:
the power to coin money.
regulate commerce with foreign nations.
regulate interstate commerce.
establish post offices.
punish crimes committed on the high seas.
establish import duties and tariffs.
more


As I said, words have meaning, federalism isn't the same as devolution. I'm not pushing federalism for Scotland btw. I'd prefer independence.
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Re: Brexit

#1046  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 03, 2017 3:21 pm

Teague wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Teague wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:

I'm pretty sure 'we' weren't.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarati ... rld_War_II


I’m still pretty sure ‘we’ weren’t.


This is entirely idiotic. I'm pretty sure 95% of people here have a reading age above 3 but for those who don't, I'm glad you're here to be a grammar Nazi.


I'm correcting your history, not your grammar.
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Re: Brexit

#1047  Postby mrjonno » Oct 04, 2017 7:39 am

Ronmcd : so federalism isn't really about what powers the local unit gets but whether they are constitutionally guaranteed to not have them removed. That's a fair enough answer but I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference to people on a day to day basis. Certainly not going to make any difference to keeping the UK together so I'm not sure why politicians go on about it unless its just a buzz media friendly word (unless its EU federalism of coursE)
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Re: Brexit

#1048  Postby ronmcd » Oct 04, 2017 8:25 am

mrjonno wrote:Ronmcd : so federalism isn't really about what powers the local unit gets but whether they are constitutionally guaranteed to not have them removed. That's a fair enough answer but I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference to people on a day to day basis. Certainly not going to make any difference to keeping the UK together so I'm not sure why politicians go on about it unless its just a buzz media friendly word (unless its EU federalism of coursE)

It depends who is using the term. It's used in particular by Scottish Labour every time they feel under pressure and want to relaunch themselves, but they don't actually mean federalism at all, they mean whatever additional level of devolution that they think can get away with less than SNP and Greens want.

From BBC Scotland Political Editor in Feb:
Which brings us to the second intriguing element of the debate. Labour's proposed solution is a federal UK. But what, precisely, do they intend to federate? Again, successive speakers acknowledged that it was impossible to offer a precise answer at this stage.

Why? Because there is no agreed formula and, more, no way of prescribing a structure for the governance of England to the good and sensible people of that nation.


But as I say, I'm not advocating federalism. I'm just pointing out it's not remotely the same thing as devolution, which is power retained at Westminster. And in my opinion, watching the Tories this last couple of years, and horrific moments from the Boris Brexit conference, who the fuck wants to stay part of UK when that lot are in power and there's fuck all we can do about it? Scotland didn't vote for the Tories, and it didn't vote for brexit. Federalism can't happen, England won't want it, Westminster won't allow it. Come the end of the brexit "negotiations", the calls for Sturgeon to put indyref2 back on the agenda will be deafening I suspect.
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Re: Brexit

#1049  Postby mrjonno » Oct 04, 2017 9:06 am

It depends who is using the term. It's used in particular by Scottish Labour every time they feel under pressure and want to relaunch themselves, but they don't actually mean federalism at all, they mean whatever additional level of devolution that they think can get away with less than SNP and Greens want.


Do you think the average member of the public or even politician really understands what federalism is then, I accept your definition so I obviously didn't (its just decentralised power to me and seems impossible without a proper constitution)
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Re: Brexit

#1050  Postby ronmcd » Oct 04, 2017 9:28 am

mrjonno wrote:
It depends who is using the term. It's used in particular by Scottish Labour every time they feel under pressure and want to relaunch themselves, but they don't actually mean federalism at all, they mean whatever additional level of devolution that they think can get away with less than SNP and Greens want.


Do you think the average member of the public or even politician really understands what federalism is then, I accept your definition so I obviously didn't (its just decentralised power to me and seems impossible without a proper constitution)

No
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Re: Brexit

#1051  Postby Animavore » Oct 04, 2017 11:50 am

A most evolved electron.
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Re: Brexit

#1054  Postby CarlPierce » Oct 05, 2017 12:04 pm

So very funny. How on earth that P45 guy got so close and the letters falling just about sums up Brexit.
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Re: Brexit

#1055  Postby Animavore » Oct 05, 2017 12:10 pm

Image
A most evolved electron.
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Re: Brexit

#1056  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 06, 2017 2:04 pm

Disappointing news for Tres:

Trump administration rejects Theresa May’s post-Brexit agriculture deal with EU

Proposal was key part of Prime Minister's plans for a smooth Brexit
The US has objected to a deal between the UK and EU to divide agricultural import quotas, one of Theresa May’s key plans for a smooth Brexit.

British and European negotiators had been working on an agreement to split tariff rate quotas, which would allow some agricultural produce to enter the EU from countries outside of the union.

A preliminary deal was drawn up between London and Brussels over how to split the EU’s existing tariff rate quotas (TRQs) - agreed under the World Trade Organisation - but it was rejected by the US, Canada, New Zealand, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil and Thailand in a co-signed letter.


Brexiteers good luck with WTO.
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Re: Brexit

#1057  Postby Macdoc » Oct 08, 2017 10:45 am

Seems this is heading for a rather nasty turmoil...

Best line I've seen.

This Brexit business is an unmitigated disaster. As a senior European politician recently observed of the British: “It was heroic of you in 1940 to stand on your own against your enemies; it is ridiculous in 2017 to stand on your own against your friends.”
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Re: Brexit

#1058  Postby Sendraks » Oct 08, 2017 12:25 pm

The really sad part is if we ran the vote now, it would almost certainly be for remain simply be sheer dint of natural wastage of the 60+ crowd who voted for Brexit. They'll be dead and gone before this is all over and we'll never fucking know what they hoped to achieved.

If there was ever a perfect example of how "age =/= wisdom" then Brexit is it.
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Re: Brexit

#1059  Postby Thommo » Oct 08, 2017 12:37 pm

Sendraks wrote:The really sad part is if we ran the vote now, it would almost certainly be for remain simply be sheer dint of natural wastage of the 60+ crowd who voted for Brexit.


Not true. Approximately 550,000 people die per year in the UK and the referendum result was around 1.3m more votes for leave than remain.

Even if one assumes that every single person who dies is old and every single person who is old voted to leave (neither of which is true) then this factor does not come close to changing the result at this point in time.
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Re: Brexit

#1060  Postby ronmcd » Oct 08, 2017 1:10 pm

The result in Scotland was 62% remain, I read somewhere this morning that polling suggests it's now higher. Might be the case in other parts of UK too. Only way to know would be ... never mind.
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