Brexit

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Re: Brexit

#10401  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 21, 2020 11:32 am

jamest wrote:
With all due respect, I'm from a working class family from inner-city Manchester and have lived in a council house for all but a decade of my life. I know what I know from experience.


And in any reasonable framing of the topic, your experience accounts for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent - to argue otherwise is extremely poor reasoning. Even if you know 100 such families, that's still not even statistically representative.

This is the problem with arguments from 'experience' - for them to be discoursively valid, the experience must be comprehensive.

So in reality, no you don't know what you're talking about and you should inform yourself by looking up studies that necessarily account for a vastly greater representative basis than what you've seen with your own eyes in life.


jamest wrote: People generally have abused the system for decades.


To correct your sloppy generalization: some tiny fraction of the percentage of people claiming benefits have abused the system for decades.


jamest wrote: Everyone surely knows that,...


People don't 'know' things like this based on their gut feelings. They 'know' stuff like this by informing themselves through representative data gathered and analyzed by professionals. What you're doing is forming political beliefs based on what are little more than prejudices.


jamest wrote: which means that surely those who are aware of it would be glad to hear of measures which might rid us of it?


What is more relevant is an appropriate response. To form an appropriate response, one must first be armed with relevant facts.


jamest wrote:Don't get me wrong, I was in care work for almost 20 years so I'm not oblivious to the needs of many people. But we'd all be blindly shoving our heads up our arses if we didn't see a need to protect our social ideals from being abused.


I want to be clear that I am not accusing you of being unsympathetic to people in need, only of employing extremely bad arguments that just so happen to coincide with your politics, and that the statements made over the last few years by the most public official members of your preferred politics have been challenged substantively by numerous studies. You're banging a tribal drum, but you don't really know why.

One can emote at reality if one chooses - no one can stop you: knock yourself out.

But your emotional experience does not supersede or replace empirical facts.
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Re: Brexit

#10402  Postby campermon » Feb 21, 2020 11:44 am

Racist woman is racist.

Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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Re: Brexit

#10403  Postby mattthomas » Feb 21, 2020 12:07 pm

I have seen that video a thousand times on twitter and just cannot bring myself to watch it...
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Re: Brexit

#10404  Postby Fallible » Feb 21, 2020 12:40 pm

campermon wrote:Racist woman is racist.



Racist woman is racist and stupid, shouting ‘rubbish’ at statistics.
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Re: Brexit

#10405  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2020 1:20 pm

campermon wrote:Racist woman is racist.


"What sort of country is allowing this tourism to come in, you arrive in a plane, you get free service, you can have your babies, you can just carry on having it all for free." (0:51 - 1:01) That woman lives in a fact-free world, and right wing politicians, with the enthusiastic assistance by the right wing media are the enablers. Oh, and the environment of millions like her.
Last edited by Hermit on Feb 21, 2020 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

#10406  Postby Fallible » Feb 21, 2020 1:21 pm

I am heartened by how she got no applause, and the answer got applause.
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Re: Brexit

#10407  Postby GrahamH » Feb 21, 2020 1:45 pm

BBC under fire for airing woman's comment to 'completely close UK borders'

The broadcast giant has been criticised for airing an audience member saying 'we should completely close borders, enough is enough' on BBC Question Time last night.
The woman said the number of people "flooding" into the UK "who cannot speak English" is costing public services too much during the fiery debate about Home Secretary Priti Patel's new points based immigration proposal.
She has been roundly criticised on Twitter since her comments, which went uninterrupted for about 90 seconds.
The BBC has come under fire for broadcasting and retweeting her views.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/w ... spartanntp
Why do you think that?
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Re: Brexit

#10408  Postby GrahamH » Feb 21, 2020 1:45 pm

post glitch
Last edited by GrahamH on Feb 21, 2020 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

#10409  Postby GrahamH » Feb 21, 2020 1:45 pm

post glitch
Last edited by GrahamH on Feb 21, 2020 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Brexit

#10410  Postby Svartalf » Feb 21, 2020 2:22 pm

Hermit wrote:
campermon wrote:Racist woman is racist.


"What sort of country is allowing this tourism to come in, you arrive in a plane, you get free service, you can have your babies, you can just carry on having it all for free." (0:51 - 1:01) That woman lives in a fact-free world, and right wing politicians, with the enthusiastic assistance by the right wing media are the enablers. Oh, and the environment of millions like her.

I don't know any country paying the way for health tourists, but some countries, say, Hungary, are very popular because, without being free, they are a lot cheaper than what you get at home.
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Re: Brexit

#10411  Postby Hermit » Feb 21, 2020 3:12 pm

Svartalf wrote:I don't know any country paying the way for health tourists, but some countries, say, Hungary, are very popular because, without being free, they are a lot cheaper than what you get at home.

Really? I suppose you can supply a link or two to credible sources for that claim.

India and a number of other Asian countries are popular destinations for westerners requiring dental work and plastic surgery at cheap rates. (Link) Anyway, in all cases the clients pay the prevailing market rates, so I don't know if you are attempting to make some point, nor what that point might be if you do.
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Re: Brexit

#10413  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 2:10 am

Fallible wrote:
jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
a) The welfare state here has been abused for many years by a considerable amount of people who are lazy and cannot be arsed to work for the extra few quid you might get for working relative to what you might get from the welfare state for doing fuck all. Indeed, in the newly imposed system (universal credits) I believe one has to prove that one has been looking for work for 37 hours(!) a week otherwise one's money is 'sanctioned' (you get much less money). Though extreme, I believe that this condition has been imposed to get many people off of their arses.


One big problem with this is that it is the justification used routinely by the Tories to then take away benefits from families that truly are in vital need of support. Numerous independent studies have shown that the actual figure of money lost to benefit fraudsters is low - in the 1% range. Don't get me wrong: these people should be caught and imprisoned for fraud, but that's as much because they're abusing a system that is meant to help people who have experienced dire situations in life which we, as a society, don't want to leave them facing alone or on the streets. From personal experience, I know the vital importance of benefit support for families and what it means as a long-term way of resolving potential generational poverty. Had I been born into the same family in Thailand, I'd almost certainly be a gangster, in prison, or dead.

There is not a considerable number of people engaged in benefit fraud - there are relatively few. What's more important is protecting the social security net we have for people who are seriously disabled or seriously unlucky. It's a society wide exercise in moral compassion and it's one of those things that makes a nation truly 'great' to not leave their citizens' well-being solely to chance.

With all due respect, I'm from a working class family from inner-city Manchester and have lived in a council house for all but a decade of my life. I know what I know from experience. People generally have abused the system for decades. Everyone surely knows that, which means that surely those who are aware of it would be glad to hear of measures which might rid us of it?

Don't get me wrong, I was in care work for almost 20 years so I'm not oblivious to the needs of many people. But we'd all be blindly shoving our heads up our arses if we didn't see a need to protect our social ideals from being abused.


You’re just plain wrong on this one, no matter how many ‘surely’s you bung in there for no good reason. Benefit fraud in general is not something whose magnitude you can accurately gauge from your personal experience of living in a council house in Manchester.

Yeah sure, so how else do we gauge it? Government statistics? You mean those statistics which only unveil the factually guilty? Well, I know for certain that none of the dozens of people I knew back in the 80s who were 'signing on' and also working for cash never got caught, which only goes to show how far short government statistics are accurate.

This country is a joke and the welfare system is responsible for that. Indeed, if you had your head screwed on you'd understand why so many Europeans were desperate to get here in recent times. Yeah, some of them were sincere about working hard and getting on, but for equally as many it was all about taking advantage of a system that would provide you with free housing; healthcare; money. Even at the expense of the poorest British citizens.

I've lived with and talked amongst many hundreds if not thousands of 'council people' over several decades. I know the mood of the people we're talking about here, and I'm ashamed to say that it ain't positive. People I've known generally will and have abused the welfare system. That's a fact. They'll work, but only for cash to top up their welfare. That was big in the 80s for sure, probably the 70s too.

Our government is not daft to this fact about the welfare state being abused. Why else, ffs, do you envision that the government now INSISTS that via the new system of universal credits (or whatever it's called), all [healthy] claimants must prove that they've been looking for work for about 37 hours a week?! Seriously, they know what's going on and they're trying to cut it out. I don't blame them at all, given what I know.

Of course, the full-time work isn't there because many employers now take advantage of the zero hours contract thingy and just pay a minimum wage to any loon willing to work without any privileges or sickness pay. And of course, this only came about because the numbers of desperate people willing to work for a pittance and zero priveleges increased dramatically when countless thousands, nay millions, of Europeans rushed across The English Channel to also take advantage of our welfare state and get whatever work was available.

The consequences, for British people? Obviously, even less motivation to work than previously. Indeed, a country now with a much higher population that cannot afford to provide the increased cost of providing that increased population with welfare, schooling, medical needs, improved networking (roads/rail etc.).

It's a fucking joke. The only people who benefitted from the influx of Europeans to our shores over the last couple of decades have been the rich owners of companies willing to employ them (or anyone) for peanuts and devoid of rights/priveleges.

Hindsight informs us that the unions crippled this country prior to Thatcher, as they regularly held the government to ransom. But only those people with brains and balls can currently argue that the EU has crippled this country for at least two decades, for allowing an incredible influx of poor Europeans into this country has benefitted very few of us, for sure. It pisses me off that to have such a view is beheld as racist, when it's only common sense. I don't care about the colour of anyone's skin or their religion or whatever, the fact is that a small house does not become a palace when you cram people in there like sardines. Enough is enough.

I thank Zeus that Brexit has happened. Of course, everything will probably still go pear-shaped, but at the very least we don't have to put up with another 10+ million poor people coming here over the next decade+ taking advantage of our country and its very limited resources.

Our country was only in the EU for less than 50 years, and the first years weren't as severe. Our country has and will survive without the EU.

My greatest wish now is to see the implosion of the EU lest my countrymen drag themselves back to that hole.
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Re: Brexit

#10414  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 2:32 am

GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:Can someone please explain to me why, within a small country wth a relatively large population of nearly 68 million people*, the country itself doesn't have enough people to do low skilled jobs? Excluding kids and pensioners, plus disabled/sick people, there are still many millions of people within the UK capable of working. ** https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47623277


You open your dail fail grade rant with totally broken logic.

It doesn't matter how many people there are. More people = more consumers = greater demand for workers to support them.

That's not true. The population of a country does not dictate the economics of a country, otherwise China would be richer than the USA and India richer than the UK. In other words, the policy of increasing a country's population doesn't fucking work as a policy for making that country richer.

Any population size has "enough people to do low-skilled jobs" if there are no "high skilled jobs". Beyond that it's a matter of what proportion of high / low skilled roles (or wealth / poverty) you have and who is prepared to pick the fruit or wipe the arses.
You could set an example jamest. quit UPS and spend your summers in the fields and your winters mopping floors. Do it for love of queen and country. You couls write a letter of thanks to M. Farage for the opportunity.

You don't have to lecture me Graham about working hard or doing shit jobs. Certainly, don't believe for one second that working as a sorter at UPS is any less demanding physically than working in the fields. Further, in my youth I worked outdoors for many years and was neither afraid of the weather nor the work itself, which was very demanding. Also, I was in care work for nearly two decades, and I assure you that I'd rather mop floors than clean someone's arse. Indeed, these days, since I only work part-time now, I often find a mop in my hand.

What about you Graham? You come across as the kind of guy who had his own desk for 4 decades before he retired? The hardest thing you did was to lift a pen? What do you know about hard work or 'the people'? Fuck all, is what I suspect, as you come across as so 'middle class', so either put up or shut up, squire.
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Re: Brexit

#10415  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 2:44 am

Spearthrower wrote:
jamest wrote:
a) The welfare state here has been abused for many years by a considerable amount of people who are lazy and cannot be arsed to work for the extra few quid you might get for working relative to what you might get from the welfare state for doing fuck all. Indeed, in the newly imposed system (universal credits) I believe one has to prove that one has been looking for work for 37 hours(!) a week otherwise one's money is 'sanctioned' (you get much less money). Though extreme, I believe that this condition has been imposed to get many people off of their arses.


One big problem with this is that it is the justification used routinely by the Tories to then take away benefits from families that truly are in vital need of support. Numerous independent studies have shown that the actual figure of money lost to benefit fraudsters is low - in the 1% range.

Please, with all due respect, shove that statistic up your arse. As I said to Fallible earlier, I knew many people abusing the welfare state in my youth and none of them got caught. What effect do you think that has upon statistics? :nono:
[
Don't get me wrong: these people should be caught and imprisoned for fraud, but that's as much because they're abusing a system that is meant to help people who have experienced dire situations in life which we, as a society, don't want to leave them facing alone or on the streets. From personal experience, I know the vital importance of benefit support for families and what it means as a long-term way of resolving potential generational poverty. Had I been born into the same family in Thailand, I'd almost certainly be a gangster, in prison, or dead.

Spare me the sermon. Having done care work for nearly two decades, I'm well aware that many people are deserving of assistance from the welfare state.

I challenge any UK citizen here accustomed to 'poor living' for the majority of their lives to question my thoughts here about poor British people abusing the welfare system in general. At no point have I said that a welfare state is not needed, so put that thought to bed Sir.

There is not a considerable number of people engaged in benefit fraud - there are relatively few.

You're kidding yourself, squire. Tell me, how many council estates have you lived in and for how long?
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Re: Brexit

#10416  Postby Alan C » Feb 22, 2020 4:01 am

We get the odd beneficiary-bashing here as well, I'd wonder whether tax-dodging companies/rich pricks would be having more of an effect.
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Re: Brexit

#10417  Postby jamest » Feb 22, 2020 4:07 am

Within my lifetime I've known a person who was actually there at The Somme in the summer of 1916 ( :waah:), and of course I've known many who endured WW2, not least my gran. Her tale of hiding in shop doorways to get to work whilst the city was being bombed, still shivers my soul.

This ridiculous state of affairs that we have here where there are still people living who still know the horrors of what happened in the 20th century, were never going to be conducive to a situation in which the British people accepted being a slave of Europe. It's just a fucking stupid ideal which came a half-dozen decades too soon, imo. For the British people, anyway.
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Re: Brexit

#10418  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 22, 2020 5:11 am

Just perplexes me that after 10 years here and those 10 years including an awful lot of self-congratulation, that you don't grasp some extremely elementary reasoning.

Arrogance and ignorance are natural bedfellows.
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Re: Brexit

#10419  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 22, 2020 5:15 am

You're making a necessarily statistical claim then dismissing the entire idea of there being statistics - it's a stolen concept fallacy. James... this is incredibly thick; there's no other way to put it.
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Re: Brexit

#10420  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 22, 2020 5:17 am

jamest wrote:
This ridiculous state of affairs that we have here where there are still people living who still know the horrors of what happened in the 20th century, were never going to be conducive to a situation in which the British people accepted being a slave of Europe. It's just a fucking stupid ideal which came a half-dozen decades too soon, imo. For the British people, anyway.


We weren't a slave of Europe; so you voted on an entirely uninformed basis.
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