Brexit

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Re: Brexit

#3341  Postby GrahamH » Oct 11, 2018 1:02 pm

Thommo wrote:
I'm fairly sure you're wrong that a hard border breaches the GFA though. The fact that neither of us can find any stipulation in the text that it would breach seems to support this conclusion.


I think you are right that doesn't breach the letter of the GFA. The issue seems to be more of breaking the spirit of it.

The following commentary makes no mention of specific breaches, which I think it would if there were any, but does point to the broader issues.

In turn, any new border across the island would be seen as a reversal of the gains of peace under the Good Friday Agreement. This point is broader than the enhanced security risk posed by a physical border as articulated by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, amongst others.
Rather it is a recognition that the implementation of the Agreement has seen a demilitarisation of the border, and many people would see any checks even if efficient and unobtrusive as a step backwards. It is the principle and symbolism of the checks themselves that is the issue.
Therefore, Brexit must be seen as an existential threat to the entire concept of a shared Northern Ireland. If a consensual approach cannot be found this leads to a zero-sum approach that sees Northern Ireland shackled to the rest of the UK in a hard Brexit with unionists engaged in siege-mentality politics and an increasingly frustrated and alienated nationalist population and indeed many others, or alternatively, or a united Ireland emerging on the basis of a majoritarian outcome within a border poll.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/good-friday-agreem ... in-brexit/
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Re: Brexit

#3342  Postby zulumoose » Oct 11, 2018 1:05 pm

More people in Northern Ireland have RoI passports than people in Britain voted for Brexit.


And another thing. How many of these people have dual passports, or hold Irish passports just to save money?
The Irish passport is very cheap to get, cheaper in many cases than a single visa application.

My family hold both British/EU and South African passports, and as someone born in N.Ireland, I can also apply for an Irish passport (my sister already has), which would probably be the cheapest way for me to visit parts of the E.U. after Brexit, even for a single visit.
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Re: Brexit

#3343  Postby Thommo » Oct 11, 2018 1:06 pm

GrahamH wrote:I think you are right that doesn't breach the letter of the GFA. The issue seems to be more of breaking the spirit of it.


Fair comment. Unfortunately that's going to be inherently subjective, and subject to legitimate disagreements. I don't think I have anything to say on the matter.
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Re: Brexit

#3344  Postby ronmcd » Oct 11, 2018 1:09 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:He attaches far too much to a backward looking group of insignificant idiots that have at the end of the day fuck all to say.
It is deadly serious also to the republicans which is why unification will happen much sooner than later.

The DUP are indeed a backward looking group of idiots, imo.

They are not insignificant. Why? Because they win elections in Northern Ireland. Did you know they win elections in Northern Ireland? Why do you think that is?

Is it because they are horrible socially conservative tosspots? Well, for some voters, probably. But that's not why they are elected by the unionist majority. It's because they are ... a) unionists and b) the unionist party with the largest vote, and so attract the unionist vote. Circular, but true.

Your idea about the republicans are "serious", but the unionists are "insignificant" is barmy. The fact is unification will happen IF there is a majority in favour of it in Northern Ireland, and the DUP stopped being elected on their unionist manifesto. It may happen but it wont be anytime soon.
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Re: Brexit

#3345  Postby ronmcd » Oct 11, 2018 1:10 pm

Thommo wrote:
GrahamH wrote:I think you are right that doesn't breach the letter of the GFA. The issue seems to be more of breaking the spirit of it.


Fair comment. Unfortunately that's going to be inherently subjective, and subject to legitimate disagreements. I don't think I have anything to say on the matter.

In fact it was suggested the Tory govt being reliant on DUP votes in a formal confidence & supply agreement was a breaking of the spirit of the GFA, if not the letter.
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Re: Brexit

#3346  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2018 1:34 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:I am sorry if cant see past your very British attitude into the real world.


No, you're not sorry. If you were actually sorry you wouldn't persist in projecting your anti-English bias onto your interlocutors and interpreting every disagreement through that lens. Unfortunately you persist in treating all English posters who disagree with you in this way, presumably because it is easier for you to just mis-characterise someone and engaged with your imagined caricature of them, then with what people actually write.

Scot Dutchy wrote: I am the one not making woeful claims based on absolutely nothing.

No one here is. However, you are making claims that have been demonstrated to be wrong or making claims which are based on an over-reliance of largely irrelevant data. You are also making claims based on casually dismissing any information you don't like because to do otherwise would force you to question your own biases.

Scot Dutchy wrote:You seem determined to push the Brexiteers agenda in any conversation as if they have the last word in all this.


All this really comes down to is you, once again, stamping your feet because you don't like it when people disagree with you but, without wanting to understanding why people disagree. Instead you project your imagined motivations onto your interlocutors about why they disagree. Case in point, referring to me as pushing the Brexiteer agenda. Teague has already astutely observed, indirectly, that I am no Brexiter and my posting history here supports this.

But, its just easier for you to paint people as being in an "enemy" camp.

Scot Dutchy wrote:They are going to accept what the EU wants which to both of you is totally unacceptable.

Is it unacceptable to me? I can't see anything in what I've written here in this thread that would support that.

Oh wait, this is you projecting your imaginings onto your interlocutors again. A strawman argument, nothing more.

Scot Dutchy wrote:You both suffer from a extreme case of PCS (post colonial syndrome) which is rampant in the UK.

Yes, more sweeping generalisations about the UK which you're projecting onto people.

I appreciate that you'll probably dismiss all of this out of hand in your usual manner.
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Re: Brexit

#3347  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 11, 2018 4:32 pm

England getting ready:

Second Kent motorway is possible post-Brexit lorry park

M26 earmarked as holding lane for HGVs if customs checks into EU become necessary
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Re: Brexit

#3348  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2018 5:13 pm

Tom Tugendhat mp is understandably annoyed about this, given he was a firm remainer MP.
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Re: Brexit

#3349  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 11, 2018 5:35 pm

A great fellow Tugendhat. Yes army and theology. Dont make them like that anymore.

How do you pronounce that name?
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Re: Brexit

#3350  Postby felltoearth » Oct 11, 2018 6:16 pm

This is how I know it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Tugendhat

Always pronounced it Too-gan-hat
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Re: Brexit

#3351  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2018 6:21 pm

I don't know him, so I've no idea if he is a great fellow or not. I can just see why he is annoyed, given his constituency is being impacted upon by something he was opposed to.
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Re: Brexit

#3352  Postby minininja » Oct 11, 2018 6:40 pm

Sendraks wrote:I don't know him, so I've no idea if he is a great fellow or not. I can just see why he is annoyed, given his constituency is being impacted upon by something he was opposed to.


Funny, from they work for you:
Almost always voted against UK membership of the EU
0 votes for, 15 votes against, 2 absences, between 2016–2018
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Brexit

#3353  Postby Thommo » Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

minininja wrote:
Sendraks wrote:I don't know him, so I've no idea if he is a great fellow or not. I can just see why he is annoyed, given his constituency is being impacted upon by something he was opposed to.


Funny, from they work for you:
Almost always voted against UK membership of the EU
0 votes for, 15 votes against, 2 absences, between 2016–2018


Remainer indicates his personal opinion and how he campaigned in the referendum. There's no contradiction there. The records of most government remainers (e.g. Theresa May) are much the same.
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Re: Brexit

#3354  Postby minininja » Oct 11, 2018 6:59 pm

Yeah, if by 'much the same' you mean 'also completely fucking hypocritical'.
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Re: Brexit

#3355  Postby Sendraks » Oct 11, 2018 7:21 pm

The party whip is a thing.
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Re: Brexit

#3356  Postby Thommo » Oct 11, 2018 7:37 pm

minininja wrote:Yeah, if by 'much the same' you mean 'also completely fucking hypocritical'.


How exactly is respecting the result of a democratic referendum completely hypocritical?

Would it be better if every MP ignored the referendum and did what they thought in the first place then?
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Re: Brexit

#3357  Postby minininja » Oct 11, 2018 9:11 pm

Sendraks wrote:The party whip is a thing.

And until he breaks it, he's not opposing.

Thommo wrote:Would it be better if every MP ignored the referendum and did what they thought in the first place then?

Yes. Yes it would.








Please both ignore me, I'm just messing.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Brexit

#3358  Postby Thommo » Oct 11, 2018 9:17 pm

Ahh, fair enough, that's just me taking everything too seriously, it's a bad habit. Sorry. :thumbup:
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Re: Brexit

#3359  Postby Alan B » Oct 11, 2018 9:18 pm

I haven't read through all this stuff but it occurred to me that if the DUP voted against May, could she claim her money back?
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Re: Brexit

#3360  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 12, 2018 8:22 am

Take their drums and flutes as well.
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