Brexit

The talks and negotiations.

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Re: Brexit

#9281  Postby GrahamH » Sep 19, 2019 7:48 pm

It's like car insurance, isn't it? We don't need to "crystallise an undesirable result" now. We haven't had an accident yet! Can't you give us until we do have an accident and I'm sure by then we will have worked out how to fix the car without insurance to pay for it.
No? Why are you being so obstructive?
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Re: Brexit

#9282  Postby Matt_B » Sep 19, 2019 8:44 pm

ronmcd wrote:But there's a world of difference between the slight ickiness of a confirmatory referendum, and the full on hypocrisy and lack of democracy in reversing a referendum based on FPTP.


There's a world of difference to me, but then again I've always been of the opinion that using referendums in this way is complete idiocy, and that electing a government gives them the power to enact legislation in accordance with their manifesto.

On the other hand, a party who went out of their way to introduce referendums, that weren't binding and only required a simple majority, for serious constitutional change really only has themselves to blame when a nutter of a PM starts abusing them to his own party political ends, only for one to eventually blow up in his face...
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Re: Brexit

#9283  Postby OlivierK » Sep 20, 2019 12:37 am

GrahamH wrote:Are they all complete imbeciles? Stephen Barclay seems clueless about what a "backstop" is:

The EU has set Britain a test it "cannot meet" with its demands to see a replacement for the Irish backstop, the Brexit Secretary has said.
Stephen Barclay said the UK should be given another year to find a new policy for the Northern Ireland border.

"We are told the UK must provide legally operative text by the 31st October," the cabinet minister said in a speech in Madrid on Thursday.
"Yet the alternative to the backstop is not necessary until the end of the Implementation Period in December 2020.
"And this will be shaped by the future relationship – which is still to be determined.
"In short why risk crystallising an undesirable result this November, when both sides can work together – until December 2020.
"In summary, the EU risks continuing to insist on a test that the UK cannot meet and that the UK Parliament has rejected three times."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/u ... spartanntp


Nothing is "crystallised" this November. The backstop is insurance that gives everyone until December 2020 to solve the border problem. :nono:

Incredible, isn't it? Barclay is outraged by the backstop, and instead wants something that isn't the backstop, but shares all of its characteristics (ie, is the backstop).

So, the EU should offer the UK a new deal. Call it the "Interim Post-Brexit Border Arrangement" under which the UK will have as much extra time as it needs to sort out the border issue, and can start implementing third party trade deals and regulatory deharmonisation as soon as the new border arrangements are agreed and implemented. Let Johnson have a big chest-beating, dick-waving presser about how he's got the EU to drop the backstop. Move on.
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Re: Brexit

#9284  Postby GrahamH » Sep 20, 2019 11:13 am

What sort of skulduggery are they up to now that they have to hide their great Brexit plans from EU member governments?

The row centres on a demand that the EU’s negotiating team treat a long-awaited cache of documents outlining the UK’s latest ideas as “Her Majesty’s government property”.
The European commission team was told by Whitehall that the three “confidential” papers it had sent on Thursday evening should not be distributed to Brexit delegates representing the EU’s 27 other member states.
Sources in Brussels said that in response the point was being made forcefully to the British negotiating team that all proposals would need to be made available for the EU’s capitals to analyse for talks to progress.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... als-secret?


Presumably an Irish stitch up of some sort.
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Re: Brexit

#9285  Postby GrahamH » Sep 20, 2019 2:42 pm

Some epic hyperbole from Emily Thornberry

Shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry has sparked fury among Liberal Democrats by comparing Jo Swinson’s party to the Taliban over their new policy to cancel Brexit if they win power.
Ms Thornberry is a committed Remainer who said she Is “never going to be able to do anything other than campaign to Remain” in any fresh referendum on Brexit.
But she said it was not “democratic” to try to overturn the result of the 2016 EU referendum without consulting voters again.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/e ... spartanntp


What utter nonsense!
Taliban?
Are the Taliban known for putting their key policies in a manifesto and asking the voters to decide in a general election?
:nono:

Even if you think a general election is not democratic enough to justify the policy you can't deny that itis "consulting voters".

If Thornberry wasn't to talk about democratic overturning she should set out exactly what options she would campaign against to show she isn't going to "undemocratically overturn" the previous result by redefining the question.

At least the Lib Dems would be pitching their option against a selection of leave options, including that from BREX.
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Re: Brexit

#9286  Postby ronmcd » Sep 20, 2019 3:21 pm

Careful Graham, I sense some creeping sickly yellow aspect to your countenance ;) fight it man! The cake is a lie!
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Re: Brexit

#9287  Postby felltoearth » Sep 20, 2019 5:48 pm

9E277767-7A95-40F6-9BC9-55C73EF49E0D.jpeg
9E277767-7A95-40F6-9BC9-55C73EF49E0D.jpeg (149.04 KiB) Viewed 274 times
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Re: Brexit

#9288  Postby Beatsong » Sep 20, 2019 7:21 pm

GrahamH wrote:Some epic hyperbole from Emily Thornberry

Shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry has sparked fury among Liberal Democrats by comparing Jo Swinson’s party to the Taliban over their new policy to cancel Brexit if they win power.
Ms Thornberry is a committed Remainer who said she Is “never going to be able to do anything other than campaign to Remain” in any fresh referendum on Brexit.
But she said it was not “democratic” to try to overturn the result of the 2016 EU referendum without consulting voters again.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/e ... spartanntp


What utter nonsense!
Taliban?


Yeah, that's a really fatuous comparison.

I mean, the Taliban are guided by a deeply held set of principles, and can be relied upon to do what they say they're going to do.
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Re: Brexit

#9289  Postby ronmcd » Sep 20, 2019 8:27 pm

Beatsong wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Some epic hyperbole from Emily Thornberry

Shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry has sparked fury among Liberal Democrats by comparing Jo Swinson’s party to the Taliban over their new policy to cancel Brexit if they win power.
Ms Thornberry is a committed Remainer who said she Is “never going to be able to do anything other than campaign to Remain” in any fresh referendum on Brexit.
But she said it was not “democratic” to try to overturn the result of the 2016 EU referendum without consulting voters again.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/e ... spartanntp


What utter nonsense!
Taliban?


Yeah, that's a really fatuous comparison.

I mean, the Taliban are guided by a deeply held set of principles, and can be relied upon to do what they say they're going to do.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Consistency
The decision making process of the Taliban in Kandahar was modeled on the Pashtun tribal council (jirga), together with what was believed to be the early Islamic model. Discussion was followed by a building of a consensus by the believers.[278]

As the Taliban's power grew, decisions were made by Mullah Omar without consulting the jirga and without Omar's visits to other parts of the country.


Heh.
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Re: Brexit

#9290  Postby GrahamH » Sep 21, 2019 4:45 am

There it is in black and white then. Lib dems' Brexit policy nothing like Taliban.
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Re: Brexit

#9291  Postby minininja » Sep 21, 2019 10:41 am

When you look at the actual quote, it's obvious she's just making an offhand comment, not anything of a serious comparison. Perhaps it's silly from a shadow minister to be using such loose language, but it also makes the Lib Dems look silly by taking it seriously. They could have just said, "Well that's nonsense, we don't care."
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Brexit

#9292  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 21, 2019 12:52 pm

minininja wrote:When you look at the actual quote, it's obvious she's just making an offhand comment, not anything of a serious comparison. Perhaps it's silly from a shadow minister to be using such loose language, but it also makes the Lib Dems look silly by taking it seriously. They could have just said, "Well that's nonsense, we don't care."



I'm not really biased towards any party in the UK, but I don't think it's at all silly to call out invocations of comparisons of British parties to regressive, violent regimes. It's nasty politics, and it should come back to slap Thornberry on the arse.
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Re: Brexit

#9293  Postby Matt_B » Sep 23, 2019 12:44 am

If you want to compare a British political party to a violent regressive regime, you could always just call them the Conservatives.
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Re: Brexit

#9294  Postby GrahamH » Sep 23, 2019 4:25 pm

Barnier wrote:"Objectively, there are possibilities," he said, but added: "I don't know how to inspect a cow with virtual methods."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/eu ... spartanntp
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Re: Brexit

#9295  Postby Alan B » Sep 24, 2019 10:02 am

Brexit: judges rule that Boris Johnson's proroguing of parliament was unlawful – live news


See Johnson thread:
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... l#p2714625
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Re: Brexit

#9298  Postby zerne » Sep 24, 2019 10:13 am

Good. I was worried for moment that the Court of Session decision would not be upheld, but when i heard they were taking time to call it i kinda figured it would go that way.
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Re: Brexit

#9299  Postby ronmcd » Sep 24, 2019 10:36 am

zerne wrote:Good. I was worried for moment that the Court of Session decision would not be upheld, but when i heard they were taking time to call it i kinda figured it would go that way.

Yeah, my Dad was saying something similar, but I was thinking the Judges don't decide *anything* quickly so who knows :smile:
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Re: Brexit

#9300  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 24, 2019 11:12 am

Johnson is fucked. Watch the money flow.
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