Brexit

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Re: Brexit

#9321  Postby GrahamH » Sep 27, 2019 11:30 am

Countering the order of council "wheeze":

Prof Mark Elliott, the deputy chair of law at the University of Cambridge, said using the royal prerogative in this way would flout the 1688 Bill of Rights. He told Today: “Any suggestion that the prerogative could be used for this purpose is entirely without foundation, and would be directly contrary to the basic principle of parliament’s sovereignty.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -misplaced
Last edited by GrahamH on Sep 27, 2019 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

#9322  Postby newolder » Sep 27, 2019 12:28 pm

IOW the sovereignty of parliament wins over an EU statute. Thus taking further wind out of the sails of Leavers who want their mythical "Restoration of Sovereignty". :sigh:
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Re: Brexit

#9323  Postby GrahamH » Sep 27, 2019 2:40 pm

Six possible "wheezes" listed here:

How could Johnson avoid delaying Brexit

  1. Double cross (deal approved)
  2. Suspend the law (Major's fear)
  3. Get EU to reject extension request
  4. Two conflicting laws (EU withdrawal vs Benn)
  5. Ignore the law
  6. Another loophole?


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1WC0VE
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Re: Brexit

#9324  Postby ronmcd » Sep 28, 2019 10:24 am

Boris Johnson no-confidence vote 'next week', says SNP MP Stewart Hosie

An SNP MP has said there could be a vote of no confidence in the government early next week aimed at replacing Boris Johnson as prime minister.

Stewart Hosie told the BBC such a move may be the only way of avoiding a no-deal Brexit on 31 October.

SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon hinted on Friday she might back Jeremy Corbyn becoming a "caretaker" prime minister.

The Liberal Democrats have, however, said Mr Corbyn is too divisive a figure to play such a role.

[...]

Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson has said an "emergency government" may be necessary but argued that MPs from all parties would not be able to unite around Mr Corbyn as a temporary leader.

She said her party had suggested other MPs as possibilities, including senior MPs who are planning to step down at the next election.

Mr Hosie said: "If another name came forward that was acceptable to everybody, a Ken Clarke or Dominic Grieve-type figure, then self-evidently that would be a good thing to do." he said.

"But it is also self-evidently the case that the second largest party (Labour) should have the first chance to form that administration.

"If Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems are actually serious about their stopping Brexit position then they need to stop playing political games, get on board with everybody else."
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Re: Brexit

#9325  Postby ronmcd » Sep 28, 2019 10:33 am

This is a great article, as most of Marina Hyde's pieces are


Tory MPs beware: if you whip up an angry mob, they may end up angry with you

But listen, Tory mooks – I’m here to help. While you’re getting a tiki torch and standing a post, let me tell you what a “people vs parliament” election ultimately means for you. First, if you whip up an angry mob, why do you assume they won’t end up angry with you? Do you think the mob is going to come upon an MP and go, “Wait, wait – this is so-and-so. He voted for Meaningful Votes 2 and 3, so we should, you know, definitely not put our pitchforks up his arse”? Eventually, you’re going to get a pitchfork up your arse either way.

To adapt that phrase of the alt-right to whom you tack closer every day: mobs don’t care about your feelings. If I had to come up with an adjective to help you understand mobs, it would probably be mob-like. Very mobby. Mobtastic. If you go to the country in a people v parliament election, you may indeed get elected and be part of a triumphant Tory majority. But when you have been elected, and when you’ve “got Brexit done” – which is to say, when you’ve either taken the UK off the no-deal cliff, or opened up the next however many painful years of trade negotiations fuckery-pokery, which is never going to solve the problems it is magically supposed to – you, then, are “parliament”.

The even angrier people are then versus YOU.

[...]

What’s amazing, given he’s written all of this stuff down, and at length, is the selective deafness of the Tories going along with it. They hear the stuff Dom is saying about things being swept away. But they don’t hear the bits that will eventually mean them.

Consider the irony of the European Research Group currently obeying a man who described them as a “narcissist-delusional subset”, adding: “You should be treated like a metastasising tumour and excised from the UK body politic.” It’s not a hugely opaque statement.
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Re: Brexit

#9326  Postby mrjonno » Sep 28, 2019 10:41 am

The mob aren't however quite as mindless as that article makes out. The mob may be brainless but they are lead by the media.

If the Sun/Mail says policy X or MP Y is good the mob will leave them alone, if the Sun/Mail says policy A and MP B are traitors they will get torched.

In the end the 'truth' is whatever the Sun/Mail says it is
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Re: Brexit

#9327  Postby GrahamH » Sep 28, 2019 10:53 am

The mob and the media after likely to turn to "this isn't the brexit it you promised us".
Who is the traitorous enemy of the people then?
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Re: Brexit

#9328  Postby mrjonno » Sep 28, 2019 11:20 am

If the Sun says it is the Brexit people were promised they will believe it regardless of reality.
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Re: Brexit

#9329  Postby tuco » Sep 28, 2019 11:56 am

The EU is the enemy to them.
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Re: Brexit

#9330  Postby GrahamH » Sep 28, 2019 1:32 pm

tuco wrote:The EU is the enemy to them.


The EU and the UK "elite" and "rich remainers" and judiciary, parliament, economists, CBI etc. And, of course, the 48%.

It's irrational but it's some sort of revolution. Fortget British reserve and sense of fair play. The country I was born into, that I thought I knew, has been revealed as façade and Brexit has torn it down and shown us the beasts all around in their union jacks.
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Re: Brexit

#9331  Postby ronmcd » Sep 28, 2019 3:02 pm

mrjonno wrote:If the Sun says it is the Brexit people were promised they will believe it regardless of reality.

I think you massively overestimate the newspapers reach these days.
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Re: Brexit

#9332  Postby minininja » Sep 28, 2019 4:24 pm

ronmcd wrote:Boris Johnson no-confidence vote 'next week', says SNP MP Stewart Hosie

An SNP MP has said there could be a vote of no confidence in the government early next week aimed at replacing Boris Johnson as prime minister.

Stewart Hosie told the BBC such a move may be the only way of avoiding a no-deal Brexit on 31 October.

SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon hinted on Friday she might back Jeremy Corbyn becoming a "caretaker" prime minister.

The Liberal Democrats have, however, said Mr Corbyn is too divisive a figure to play such a role.

[...]

Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson has said an "emergency government" may be necessary but argued that MPs from all parties would not be able to unite around Mr Corbyn as a temporary leader.

She said her party had suggested other MPs as possibilities, including senior MPs who are planning to step down at the next election.

Mr Hosie said: "If another name came forward that was acceptable to everybody, a Ken Clarke or Dominic Grieve-type figure, then self-evidently that would be a good thing to do." he said.

"But it is also self-evidently the case that the second largest party (Labour) should have the first chance to form that administration.

"If Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems are actually serious about their stopping Brexit position then they need to stop playing political games, get on board with everybody else."

I said it, back when Swinson first made her immediate rejection of Corbyn before even engaging in talks, that she might have fucked it. That she still hasn't admitted her mistake and got behind Corbyn is utterly ridiculous from the leader of a party supposedly putting stopping Brexit as their top priority. By advancing the as yet untested opinion that Corbyn couldn't get the support of the house, by having one of the main anti-brexit opposition blocks refusing to join a united front against No Deal, they remove all pressure that could be applied to the rebel and now ex- Tories. And all the people that have been suggested as "compromise" candidates have either said they'd back Corbyn themselves or would want to try and get their own Brexit deal.

At this point they don't even need the support of the Tories. If the Lib-Dems and the Change Independent group, whoever they are now, were to support Corbyn for a confidence vote for a temporary government, to do no more than get an extension and call an election, all they'd need from those ex-Tory MPs, who were kicked out for trying to prevent No Deal, is for them to abstain. They wouldn't have to vote for Corbyn, they'd just have to not vote for Johnson's No Deal at the risk of their own jobs, and they've already done that once. It's the Lib-Dems that are blocking what might now be the only way to guarantee that we don't leave with No Deal in a month's time. When the Lib-Dems say that MPs won't support Corbyn, they are only talking for themselves.

If the wider Lib-Dem membership can't get their Leader and MPs to rapidly change tack, and if Johnson can find any way to get around the Benn law, which seems possible, we might be fucked. And it would all be because Swinson would rather get credit for making a Brexit cancellation promise she'd probably never have to keep, than lose support by keeping a promise to do whatever it takes and putting the country before her party.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Brexit

#9334  Postby OlivierK » Sep 28, 2019 11:06 pm

Swinson seems to be opposing Corbyn in the hope that if she rejects him as caretaker PM often enough, someone, somewhere will suggest her for the job.
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Re: Brexit

#9335  Postby Matt_B » Sep 29, 2019 5:52 am

OlivierK wrote:Swinson seems to be opposing Corbyn in the hope that if she rejects him as caretaker PM often enough, someone, somewhere will suggest her for the job.


Given that it's almost certainly a career-finisher for whoever takes the job on, I'm not sure why either of them would want it.

It's a shit enough time to be a PM, with everything that needs resolving over Brexit and all the other business that's been piling up on the back burner, even for someone who had a majority. Leading an unstable coalition who can only agree upon not doing anything yet is just hard-mode blindfolded.
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Re: Brexit

#9336  Postby Alan C » Sep 29, 2019 8:37 am

I've been following David Lammy on Twitter. I just took a look at the comments in a recent post, the majority of the comments seems to be from brexiters [and/or bots?]
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Re: Brexit

#9337  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 29, 2019 10:29 am

ronmcd wrote:
mrjonno wrote:If the Sun says it is the Brexit people were promised they will believe it regardless of reality.

I think you massively overestimate the newspapers reach these days.

reach to readers is not required.
Many politicians, on the other hand, probably still think that mrjonno‘s statement is true.
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

try not to overthink my posts: I have an attention span of about 15 minutes.
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Re: Brexit

#9338  Postby aufbahrung » Sep 29, 2019 10:57 am

Shorting the people. Betting on a population decline post-brexit to overcome the UK's housing/power deficits and the burden so many place on capital. That's what is really going on. Behind closed doors, where the devious Cummings of the world lurk. They know precisely what they are doing and why. You'd think the public has a say in this reading this thread. How much naivety can there be?
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Re: Brexit

#9339  Postby Matt_B » Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
mrjonno wrote:If the Sun says it is the Brexit people were promised they will believe it regardless of reality.

I think you massively overestimate the newspapers reach these days.

reach to readers is not required.
Many politicians, on the other hand, probably still think that mrjonno‘s statement is true.


It's not so much just the Sun though, as all the right wing papers combined, all their pundits that British TV stations need to have on in the name of impartiality, and a bunch of social media influencers on top of it.

Media is changing and newspapers are considerably less relevant, for sure, but the ability to drive policy via an orchestrated push remains considerable.
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Re: Brexit

#9340  Postby zerne » Sep 30, 2019 12:12 am

aufbahrung wrote:Shorting the people. Betting on a population decline post-brexit to overcome the UK's housing/power deficits and the burden so many place on capital. That's what is really going on. Behind closed doors, where the devious Cummings of the world lurk. They know precisely what they are doing and why. You'd think the public has a say in this reading this thread. How much naivety can there be?


Plenty naive. Positively naïf in fact.

I wouldn't worry about Cummings. He may have the PM's ear, but Parliament has his balls. Gripped firmly, and squeezed 7 times now. The powerless PM with his unlikeable Igor can scheme and plot but cannot actually do much at this point without Parliament scrutinising every detail. Can't even call a General Election. :lol:

Meanwhile:
http://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/413523/brexit-countdown
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