Brexit

The talks and negotiations.

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Re: Brexit

#9761  Postby BlackBart » Nov 08, 2019 7:25 am

Double post about Scotland.

AARGH! I said it again!
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Re: Brexit

#9763  Postby BlackBart » Nov 08, 2019 6:27 pm

What? Scotland?
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Re: Brexit

#9764  Postby ronmcd » Nov 08, 2019 8:31 pm

BlackBart wrote:What? Scotland?


You sound like the Labour Party

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1192881577258299398
Almost impossible to imagine Labour on just 12% in Scotland. Scotland was the Labour Party not that long ago

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Re: Brexit

#9765  Postby Ironclad » Nov 08, 2019 11:21 pm

Still love the fucking Tories though eh, dontchya.
/leftist rage
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Re: Brexit

#9767  Postby newolder » Nov 09, 2019 10:51 am

From yesterday's meeting in Dublin of the International Grand Committee on Disinformation and "Fake News" - The evidence.

Lord David Putnam:

[The report is] being blocked because it begs real questions of the legitimacy of the original referendum ... the last thing in the world that Boris Johnson wants is a debate on the legitimacy of that result.

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Re: Brexit

#9768  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 10:58 am

Has he seen it then?
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Re: Brexit

#9769  Postby newolder » Nov 09, 2019 11:18 am

I don't know but I am waiting for a reply to that very question.
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Re: Brexit

#9770  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 11:20 am

He's not listed as a committee member, but I don't know whether MPs not on the committee get access to the report.

Circumstantially Caroline Flint's behaviour in recent months speaks against the report being quite so extreme.
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Re: Brexit

#9771  Postby newolder » Nov 09, 2019 11:29 am

via politico.eu
Caroline Flint. Despite backing Remain during the referendum, Flint is a northern MP with a Brexit-backing constituency who believes Brexit means Brexit.

Which Brexit is she thinking of?
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Re: Brexit

#9772  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 11:43 am

Well, the point is that she backed remain and is on the committee, and thus has seen the evidence and report into Russian interference. If that evidence raised compelling questions into the legitimacy of the referendum it would seem strange that she continues to back implementing leave on the basis of that referendum being legitimate.
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Re: Brexit

#9773  Postby newolder » Nov 09, 2019 11:54 am

Thommo wrote:Well, the point is that she backed remain and is on the committee, and thus has seen the evidence and report into Russian interference. If that evidence raised compelling questions into the legitimacy of the referendum it would seem strange that she continues to back implementing leave on the basis of that referendum being legitimate.

No. Not really - she's a "Brexit means Brexit" person and we don't know, yet, which Brexit she is thinking of.

Also, if the report raised no concerns over the legitimacy of the vote, its release would change nothing. If the report were to have found, "We investigated and found nothing wrong.", holding it back benefits whom?
Last edited by newolder on Nov 09, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

#9774  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 12:03 pm

Yes, really. She backed remain and her mind was changed by the result of the referendum. If she found out that result was illegitimate it would be extremely odd for her mind to remain completely changed when removed from the very reason she changed it.

Compared to the speculation of someone who may not have even seen the evidence, that provides motivation for a healthy dose of scepticism.

It might be worth mentioning that until now all the credible information made public (at least as far as I'm aware) regarding Russian interference suggests it was neither widespread nor effective. That doesn't make it ok, of course, but it probably means the reason for this government report being suppressed is rather more mundane. Governments suppress negative reports, inquiries and papers with monotonous regularity and tend to time the release for less damaging moments or days when they can "bury" them. Sad, but true.

Edit: Typo.
Last edited by Thommo on Nov 09, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

#9775  Postby Tortured_Genius » Nov 09, 2019 12:11 pm

I personally suspect there is very little of import in the report.

Withholding it though makes it a "safe" topic that the opposition can waste time questioning and speculating about and later be shown to be harmless.

Far better than them analysing in detail the current Brexit plan or why so many Tories want to drop the economy into the toilet.
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Re: Brexit

#9776  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 12:14 pm

Regarding the edit: We already know Russia made some efforts to interfere in the referendum (and most elections across Europe in the last half decade as well). The question the committee was trying to answer is how extensive and how effective those interferences were. If and only if they were very widespread and fairly effective (of the order of reversing the direction of half a million or so votes) would that call the legitimacy of the referendum into doubt.

The report clearly would not conclude "we investigated and found nothing wrong". This does not mean it concludes that there's evidence of the result of the referendum being illegitimate. There's an extremely wide centre ground between those possibilities.

If (as would appear likely) the reality lies somewhere in that centre ground then the government is cynically suppressing the report to avoid any negative press or negative spin, rather than avoiding real questions about the legitimacy of the referendum. That possibility would hardly be great, but it would, unfortunately, be business as usual.
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Re: Brexit

#9777  Postby newolder » Nov 09, 2019 12:18 pm

Thommo wrote:Yes, really. She backed remain and her mind was changed by the result of the referendum. If she found out that result was illegitimate it would be extremely odd for her mind to remain completely changed when removed from the very reason she changed it.

Compared to the speculation of someone who may not have even seen the evidence, that provides motivation for a healthy dose of scepticism.

It might be worth mentioning that until now all the credible information made public (at least as far as I'm aware) regarding Russian interference suggests it was neither widespread nor effective. That doesn't make it ok, of course, but it probably means the reason for this government report being suppressed is rather more mundane. Government's suppress negative reports, inquiries and papers with monotonous regularity and tend to time the release for less damaging moments or days when they can "bury" them. Sad, but true.


I am skeptical of a person with a "Brexit means Brexit" stance. How does not releasing the report help anything?
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Re: Brexit

#9778  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 12:28 pm

Be sceptical of her, that's fine. I suggest scepticism towards people who haven't seen the evidence as well. Puttnam's speculation matters more if he's got access to evidence that we don't than if he does not.
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Re: Brexit

#9779  Postby newolder » Nov 09, 2019 12:40 pm

Thommo wrote:Be sceptical of her, that's fine. I suggest scepticism towards people who haven't seen the evidence as well. Puttnam's speculation matters more if he's got access to evidence that we don't than if he does not.

Have you seen the evidence? How does not releasing the report help me see the evidence?
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Re: Brexit

#9780  Postby Thommo » Nov 09, 2019 12:44 pm

How does listening to Puttnam's speculation help you see the evidence?
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