Brexit

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Re: Brexit

#9822  Postby OlivierK » Nov 19, 2019 11:58 pm

That went well!
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Re: Brexit

#9823  Postby BlackBart » Nov 20, 2019 7:45 am

ronmcd wrote:I know it's hard to believe, but did you know this "debate" was broadcast on national ITV, including STV and Border, and presumably in Wales and NI too?

I know!

That was a debate?! I thought someone had remade the Two Tribes video.
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Re: Brexit

#9824  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 20, 2019 1:01 pm

ronmcd wrote:I didn't watch it, my fingernails needed pulling out, or something, but apparently the two main political leaders (in England) held some sort of "debate". My understanding from words on t'internet is Boris mentioned indyref and Sturgeon in the first question, and there was even a formal question to the two main political leaders (in England) about Scottish and Scottish independence, where they were given free reign for a few minutes to tell us what we could and could not bally well do, thank you very much.


Under the Scotland Act, constitutional questions are reserved to Westminster. Given one of them will be Prime Minister in a month, it was hardly unreasonable of them to outline their policy on future independence referenda.
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Re: Brexit

#9825  Postby GrahamH » Nov 20, 2019 2:59 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:Under the Scotland Act, constitutional questions are reserved to Westminster. Given one of them will be Prime Minister in a month, it was hardly unreasonable of them to outline their policy on future independence referenda.


If they want to talk about independence they should do so with the representatives of those who's independence is at stake.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Brexit

#9826  Postby minininja » Nov 21, 2019 12:47 am

What's the betting that if the Tories fall short of a majority, that Swinson will take the Lib Dems back into coalition with them in exchange for a second referendum in which the official campaigns will be led by Johnson for his deal and Swinson for remain, and leave will win again?

@BBCNewsnight
Political editor @nicholaswatt says there has been a “clear pivot” in the Lib Dems’ general election campaign today as they downgrade their ambitions.

They are “suggesting they could vote for Boris Johnson’s deal" if he adds on to it a referendum with a Remain option
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Brexit

#9827  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 21, 2019 1:00 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:Under the Scotland Act, constitutional questions are reserved to Westminster. Given one of them will be Prime Minister in a month, it was hardly unreasonable of them to outline their policy on future independence referenda.


If they want to talk about independence they should do so with the representatives of those who's independence is at stake.


They have done.
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Re: Brexit

#9828  Postby GrahamH » Nov 21, 2019 5:19 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:Under the Scotland Act, constitutional questions are reserved to Westminster. Given one of them will be Prime Minister in a month, it was hardly unreasonable of them to outline their policy on future independence referenda.


If they want to talk about independence they should do so with the representatives of those who's independence is at stake.


They have done.


Those representatives were excluded from that debate where independence was discussed:

ronmcd wrote:My understanding from words on t'internet is Boris mentioned indyref and Sturgeon in the first question, and there was even a formal question to the two main political leaders (in England) about Scottish and Scottish independence, where they were given free reign for a few minutes to tell us what we could and could not bally well do, thank you very much.
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Re: Brexit

#9829  Postby Ironclad » Nov 21, 2019 6:06 pm

Did all the Brits here get a lovely letter from Boris today? We did, it's funny. "let's get off the hamster wheel of Doom", he says.
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Re: Brexit

#9830  Postby ronmcd » Nov 21, 2019 7:01 pm

Ironclad wrote:Did all the Brits here get a lovely letter from Boris today? We did, it's funny. "let's get off the hamster wheel of Doom", he says.

I don't think he'll be bothering to send them this far north
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Re: Brexit

#9831  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 21, 2019 8:31 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:Under the Scotland Act, constitutional questions are reserved to Westminster. Given one of them will be Prime Minister in a month, it was hardly unreasonable of them to outline their policy on future independence referenda.


If they want to talk about independence they should do so with the representatives of those who's independence is at stake.


They have done.


Those representatives were excluded from that debate where independence was discussed:


So were many other representatives. The debate was supposed to be between the only two people who can be PM, who, appropriately, expressed their view on an important constitutional question when asked to do so.
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Re: Brexit

#9832  Postby GrahamH » Nov 21, 2019 9:06 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
GrahamH wrote:

If they want to talk about independence they should do so with the representatives of those who's independence is at stake.


They have done.


Those representatives were excluded from that debate where independence was discussed:


So were many other representatives. The debate was supposed to be between the only two people who can be PM, who, appropriately, expressed their view on an important constitutional question when asked to do so.


It's not an election of a president Prime Minister you know.
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Re: Brexit

#9833  Postby Thommo » Nov 21, 2019 9:21 pm

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... elections/
Can I vote for a new Prime Minister?

You can only vote to elect your local MP in a general election. You cannot vote for a new Prime Minister. If you live in the constituency represented by the current Prime Minister you are still only voting for them as your local MP in the next Parliament. This is the same if you live in the constituency of the leader of another political party. You will only be voting for them as your local MP.
Who chooses the Prime Minister?

The Prime Minister is appointed by the monarch. The monarch's appointment of the Prime Minister is guided by constitutional conventions.

The political party that wins the most seats in the House of Commons at a general election usually forms the new government. Its leader becomes Prime Minister.

The British Monarchy: The Queen and Government (external site)

These conventions, laws and rules are set out in the Cabinet Manual. These affect the conduct and operation of government. It includes the role of the Sovereign.

GOV.UK: The Cabinet Manual (external site)


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... manual.pdf
Parliaments with an overall majority in the House of Commons 2.11 After an election, if an incumbent government retains an overall majority – that is, where the number of seats won by the largest party in an election exceeds the combined number of seats for all the other parties in the new Parliament – it will normally continue in office and resume normal business. There is no need for the Sovereign to ask the Prime Minister to continue. If the election results in an overall majority for a different party, the incumbent Prime Minister and government will immediately resign and the Sovereign will invite the leader of the party that has won the election to form a government. Details on the appointment of the Prime Minister and ministers can be found in Chapter Three.

Parliaments with no overall majority in the House of Commons 2.12 Where an election does not result in an overall majority for a single party, the incumbent government remains in office unless and until the Prime Minister tenders his or her resignation and the Government’s resignation to the Sovereign. An incumbent government is entitled to wait until the new Parliament has met to see if it can command the confidence of the House of Commons, but is expected to resign if it becomes clear that it is unlikely to be able to command that confidence and there is a clear alternative.
...
3.1 The Prime Minister is the head of the Government and holds that position by virtue of his or her ability to command the confidence of the House of Commons, which in turn commands the confidence of the electorate, as expressed through a general election. The Prime Minister’s unique position of authority also comes from support in the House of Commons. By modern convention, the Prime Minister always sits in the House of Commons.1 The Prime Minister will normally be the accepted leader of a political party that commands the majority of the House of Commons. For cases where no political party has an overall majority, see Chapter Two, paragraphs 2.12–2.17.
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Re: Brexit

#9834  Postby mrjonno » Nov 21, 2019 9:27 pm

Theory v the real world

In theory you elect a local representative that chooses a Prime Minister.

In reality few give a shit who their local MP is (or even know), they are voting for a party and in particular a Prime Minister.

Apart from the rare instances of a hung parliament MP's are lobby fodder for the whips
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Re: Brexit

#9835  Postby Thommo » Nov 21, 2019 9:31 pm

In theory you vote for a local MP, and the leader of the party that has the support of most MPs becomes Prime Minister. Which is to say that the election decides (in almost all theoretical cases, and all those that have happened in the last few hundred years) who becomes PM.

If Boris or Jeremy lose their seat this may not be the case, if neither does, it will.

Although I can't help noticing that Tracer Tong did not assert that you could vote for PM or even explicitly endorse the idea that the election decides the matter.
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Re: Brexit

#9836  Postby Fallible » Nov 21, 2019 9:46 pm

Damn iPad kicked me off mid post. This is the second time that’s happened. Someone doesn’t want me making those comments about Nicola Sturgeon. Well tough!

Sad to say I would have got precisely nothing from seeing Sturgeon in that debate. The SNP are not going to become the party of government in my area, or for the majority of Brits. I already know she wants Indyref 2, which I do not oppose. I can’t vote for the SNP. I have no SNP representative in my borough (Marie Rimmer). In short, despite being one of the better party leaders, Nicola Sturgeon is pretty much irrelevant to me at this point.
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Re: Brexit

#9837  Postby Thommo » Nov 21, 2019 9:48 pm

I think you can argue it both ways, but since I had no intention of watching the debate, didn't watch it and won't watch it, I have to say I've not bothered to form an opinion. The closest I got was an eye roll when Jo Swinson decided to declare it sexism.
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Re: Brexit

#9838  Postby Fallible » Nov 21, 2019 9:54 pm

:lol: Lovely stuff.
Sorry that you think you had it rough in the first world.
You ought to get out a map sooner than later.
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Re: Brexit

#9839  Postby ronmcd » Nov 21, 2019 11:32 pm

Fallible wrote:
Sad to say I would have got precisely nothing from seeing Sturgeon in that debate. The SNP are not going to become the party of government in my area, or for the majority of Brits. I already know she wants Indyref 2, which I do not oppose. I can’t vote for the SNP. I have no SNP representative in my borough (Marie Rimmer). In short, despite being one of the better party leaders, Nicola Sturgeon is pretty much irrelevant to me at this point.


I completely understand the argument, ie having politicians I can't vote for would be irrelevant to me.

And this is mostly me being pedandic and not entirely serious, and recycling old arguments not really aimed at you BUT ... the debate wasn't just shown where you are. It was shown nationally, as a huge event with at the very least the *potential* to affect the result in areas where those two parties are not the ones people would otherwise vote for. (not that I think it makes any difference to SNP vote)

You see, it was really a local debate. Just instead of (say) Scottish parties in our local debates, or Northern Irish Parties in their local debates, it was English Labour and English Tories in an English local debate, arguing about polices that in many cases only affect England or England & Wales, although many voters in all parts of UK don't know that.

Ah, but one of them will be PM. But that isn't how we all vote, for a PM or a party to be a WM government. If we did, we'd all vote Labour or Tory, all 66 million of us, and the two party system would be absolute and self-fulfilling. It's not just who ends up as PM and govt, it's about who and why we vote for - it changes the result. So why should the debate be just PM candidates if it's not what we vote for (a PM)?

So for the argument that those people don't stand in my area, so they're irrelevant to me, I say:
What about those people where they are relevant?

Well they can have their own debate, they say. Oh, like the national one shown on prime time ITV, with days of build up analysis and .... lord no, stick it on UTV or BBC2 Scotland at 10:30 after the local news.


Ach well, as i say, it's all irrelevant in any case. And I'm sure everybody will be tuning in to the 2 hour Question Time special tomorrow night with Johnson, Corbyn, Swinson and Sturgeon? Nah :grin:
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