Brexit

Scot Dutchy · **#8121** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jun 13, 2019 5:55 pm

Remember he is Trump's puppet. That is the most frightening aspect.

The Hanging Monkey · **#8122** by **The Hanging Monkey** » Jun 13, 2019 5:59 pm

Thommo wrote:It's not really Johnson's Brexit stance that bothers me. It's everything else.

Well, yes, there is that

ronmcd · **#8123** by **ronmcd** » Jun 13, 2019 8:36 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Remember he is Trump's puppet. That is the most frightening aspect.

Is everybody part of your conspiracy theory?

GrahamH · **#8124** by **GrahamH** » Jun 13, 2019 9:26 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Remember he is Trump's puppet. That is the most frightening aspect.

Is everybody part of your conspiracy theory?

Everybody except you Ron.

Matt_B · **#8125** by **Matt_B** » Jun 13, 2019 9:39 pm

I'd think that the only thing that would change with BoJo versus May is that he'd be willing to crash the car to get what he wants.

ronmcd · **#8126** by **ronmcd** » Jun 13, 2019 9:39 pm

GrahamH wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Remember he is Trump's puppet. That is the most frightening aspect.

Is everybody part of your conspiracy theory?
Everybody except you Ron.

I'm in so deep, even I don't know!

tuco · **#8127** by **tuco** » Jun 13, 2019 9:56 pm

Matt_B wrote:I'd think that the only thing that would change with BoJo versus May is that he'd be willing to crash the car to get what he wants.

Somehow he seems to think, claimed respectively, that willing to accept no-deal, and being prepared for it, will strengthen the UK's negotiating position with the EU. I am willing to accept this, logic. Still beyond me what he wants to negotiate and why its being accepted but let's not go there again.

----

Ignore Boris Johnson’s bluster about Brexit. He wants a general election
He knows a better Brexit deal isn’t possible, and that no deal could be blocked. He’s playing a different game entirely

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... l-election

----

ronmcd?

Scot Dutchy · **#8128** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jun 13, 2019 10:01 pm

ronmcd wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Remember he is Trump's puppet. That is the most frightening aspect.

Is everybody part of your conspiracy theory?
Everybody except you Ron.

I'm in so deep, even I don't know!

Well Ron Alex is pure as the driven snow? Next to Farage he is Trump's stooge just read his statements.

He is a no-dealer and wants the UK tied into a massive trade deal with the USA (a 51st state in all but name).
He knows he cant renegotiate so what are the alternatives? Cancelling Art 50? Over his dead body. :whistle:

ronmcd · **#8129** by **ronmcd** » Jun 13, 2019 10:13 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Is everybody part of your conspiracy theory?
Everybody except you Ron.

I'm in so deep, even I don't know!

Well Ron Alex is pure as the driven snow? Next to Farage he is Trump's stooge just read his statements.

He is a no-dealer and wants the UK tied into a massive trade deal with the USA (a 51st state in all but name).
He knows he cant renegotiate so what are the alternatives? Cancelling Art 50? Over his dead body.

Firstly, who is "Alex" and what has he to do with this?

Secondly, ok so Johnson knows he cant renegotiate, says he will go for no deal (although I'm doubtful, but let's take him at his word), and he knows Trump and Trump calls him his friend. None of that actually means he is Trump's puppet. I don't think Johnson is anybody's puppet, he's entirely interested in himself and his ambition to be PM. What happens after that I imagine hasn't genuinely crossed his mind, never mind being involved in some sort of Trump lead conspiracy.

Svartalf · **#8130** by **Svartalf** » Jun 13, 2019 10:35 pm

problem is that even if people try to avoid a no deal exit, the one deal offered, and nothing else will be substituted, is the oft rejected may deal, so it's either end up accepting what has been rejected thrice, or getting a no deal exit which will be disastrous.

ronmcd · **#8131** by **ronmcd** » Jun 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Svartalf wrote:problem is that even if people try to avoid a no deal exit, the one deal offered, and nothing else will be substituted, is the oft rejected may deal, so it's either end up accepting what has been rejected thrice, or getting a no deal exit which will be disastrous.

Yes, there's two different elements to this
- REALITY which involves the EU at the very least having to agree to any extension, or as on the last occasion, deciding for us
- Tory POLITICS which revolve around which candidate can get elected by the party members by sounding convincing about their desire for a no deal brexit (which doesn't exist)

Boris Johnson is playing the second one at the moment. Once he wins, he will have to deal with the first. Reality. Don't expect anything Johnson says to win the first to be involved in the second.

ronmcd · **#8132** by **ronmcd** » Jun 13, 2019 11:06 pm

(and when I say no deal doesnt exist, it does, but it's really just the first day in a long drawn out and much more painful renegotiation)

Matt_B · **#8133** by **Matt_B** » Jun 14, 2019 3:31 am

Obviously no-deal really just means no-trade-deal, with everything else having to be worked out against a background of the UK being unceremoniously dumped out of every international agreement it currently partakes in by virtue of being an EU member, when the latter concludes the emergency arrangements that will only be put into place to protect the interests of its own.

That said, I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility that Johnson would force the country into that situation, only to jump ship and let someone else pick up the mess when things don't go to plan. He'd only be following in the footsteps of the last two Prime Ministers, after all.

Thommo · **#8134** by **Thommo** » Jun 14, 2019 3:39 am

tuco wrote:Still beyond me what he wants to negotiate and why its being accepted but let's not go there again.

What he wants is simple enough: removing the unlimited nature of the Northern Ireland backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement.

The EU have said they won't do that. Either one believes them, or they don't. People here believe them, Boris doesn't. Obviously not everyone is right and time is likely to show who that is.

Scot Dutchy · **#8135** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jun 14, 2019 4:28 am

ronmcd wrote:
Yes, there's two different elements to this
- REALITY which involves the EU at the very least having to agree to any extension, or as on the last occasion, deciding for us

REALITY: The EU has stated no further extension will be given. The agreement reached for this extension states that there will be no further negotiation on May's deal and no further extension.

- Tory POLITICS which revolve around which candidate can get elected by the party members by sounding convincing about their desire for a no deal brexit (which doesn't exist)

REALITY all tory candidates have no option but to support no-deal as there is no other option.

Scot Dutchy · **#8136** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jun 14, 2019 4:32 am

Matt_B wrote:That said, I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility that Johnson would force the country into that situation, only to jump ship and let someone else pick up the mess when things don't go to plan. He'd only be following in the footsteps of the last two Prime Ministers, after all.

This would be true to form for Johnson and the tory party. His mayorship in London does lend itself to this conclusion.

Thommo · **#8137** by **Thommo** » Jun 14, 2019 4:42 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:REALITY: The EU has stated no further extension will be given. The agreement reached for this extension states that there will be no further negotiation on May's deal and no further extension.

This appears to be the agreement:
https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/do ... NIT/en/pdf

Scot Dutchy · **#8138** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jun 14, 2019 5:48 am

Looks clear enough to me:

This extension excludes any re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement. Any unilateral commitment, statement or other act by the United Kingdom should be compatible with the letter and the spirit of the Withdrawal Agreement, and must not hamper its implementation. Such an extension cannot be used to start negotiations on the future relationship.

Thanks btw.

Thommo · **#8139** by **Thommo** » Jun 14, 2019 5:53 am

Are you saying that is the same as what you said?

If so, we should be clear that It isn't. You said further extension had been ruled out and that this was stated in the agreement and also that the EU had said the withdrawal agreement would not be renegotiated. Only the latter of those two things is present in the agreement.

Scot Dutchy · **#8140** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jun 14, 2019 6:14 am

An extension would need the WA to be reopened. The date of withdrawal has been fixed.

On10 April2019, the European Council agreed to a further extension to allow for the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement by both Parties. Such an extension should last as long as necessary and, in any event, no longer than31October2019. The European Council also recalled that, under Article50(3) TEU, the Withdrawal Agreement may enter into force on an earlier date, should the Parties complete their respective ratification procedures before 31October2019. Consequently, the withdrawal should take place on the first day of the month following the completion of the ratification procedures or on 1November2019, whichever is the earliest.

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