Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

Interdisciplinary Group on Preventing School and Community Violence

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#201  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 07, 2018 6:19 am

Seabass wrote:Gun control... 'Murican style.

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Horrible.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#202  Postby zulumoose » Jun 07, 2018 6:27 am

Gun control UK style.



Best bits:-

"What about the rights of those who do not wish to live next to an armed man?"

"If you were an ant, would you consider it a matter of civil liberties that a socially dysfunctional worker ant be allowed to keep a pet anteater?"
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#203  Postby Animavore » Jun 07, 2018 7:33 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Horrible.


Especially the awkward, second stanza.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#204  Postby Animavore » Jun 07, 2018 7:35 am

I've never noticed how long and weird Rowan Atkinson's thumbs are before.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#205  Postby mrjonno » Jun 07, 2018 9:24 am

That video pretty much covers it, the security of the community trump that of the individual
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#206  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 07, 2018 10:33 am

mrjonno wrote:That video pretty much covers it, the security of the community trump that of the individual


What you mean is "3 > 1". Congratulations in passing basic mathematics, unless you have a community in mind that is worth saving, other than in its own self-esteemed opinion.

Go directly to the Department of Tautology Department. Do not pass 'Go'. Do not collect 200 bucks.

I can speculate about what kind of security the community is actually envisioning, but don't let that trouble you. First, you have to figure out who's in the community and who isn't, but I don't expect you to be able to do that, because it is something for the community to figure out, whatever the community is.

Does this show your post is more idiotic than your average post? I don't know. The security of the community wins. Who knew? But how does it play out in practice? Whose security is getting the shaft?
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#207  Postby Fallible » Jun 07, 2018 1:36 pm

Pounds. 200 pounds. Colonials... :nono:
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#208  Postby zulumoose » Jun 07, 2018 1:40 pm

Personally, I'm relieved when anyone tells me I do not have to collect 200 bucks. I've always dreaded it.

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#209  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 07, 2018 2:02 pm

Fallible wrote:Pounds. 200 pounds. Colonials... :nono:


Two hundred guilders.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#210  Postby Fallible » Jun 07, 2018 2:11 pm

Pff.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#211  Postby mrjonno » Jun 07, 2018 2:12 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
mrjonno wrote:That video pretty much covers it, the security of the community trump that of the individual


What you mean is "3 > 1". Congratulations in passing basic mathematics, unless you have a community in mind that is worth saving, other than in its own self-esteemed opinion.

Go directly to the Department of Tautology Department. Do not pass 'Go'. Do not collect 200 bucks.

I can speculate about what kind of security the community is actually envisioning, but don't let that trouble you. First, you have to figure out who's in the community and who isn't, but I don't expect you to be able to do that, because it is something for the community to figure out, whatever the community is.

Does this show your post is more idiotic than your average post? I don't know. The security of the community wins. Who knew? But how does it play out in practice? Whose security is getting the shaft?



It quite simply means if someone wants to break into my house and kill me, not having a private AK47 means they will succeed and I will die.

However no-one having private AK47's drastically reduces the chances of anyone breaking into my house (with or without an Ak47) to kill me.

My safety is statistically improved by improving that of the community however it doesn't guarantee a lone psycho will ignore the law.

A safer society on average means a safer me, tough shit if i'm the outliner victim
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#212  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 07, 2018 2:46 pm

mrjonno wrote:
It quite simply means if someone wants to break into my house and kill me, not having a private AK47 means they will succeed and I will die.

However no-one having private AK47's drastically reduces the chances of anyone breaking into my house (with or without an Ak47) to kill me.

My safety is statistically improved by improving that of the community however it doesn't guarantee a lone psycho will ignore the law.

A safer society on average means a safer me, tough shit if i'm the outliner victim


Do you honestly think that anyone would try to break into your house because they thought there was anything valuable inside? If so, where did they get that idea? Right. They would never think so, and if you're worried about random violence, you already live in the wrong neighborhood. In no way does that make you an 'outliner'.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#213  Postby Seabass » Jun 15, 2018 7:49 am

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire

"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#214  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jun 15, 2018 8:15 am

Great stance guys, great stance.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#215  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 15, 2018 10:04 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Great stance guys, great stance.


I don't oppose gun rights, mainly because I can't outgun the gun lobby, and also because every gun death is just one person less who's going to be up nights worrying about global warming and sea level rise. And the ones who weren't worried about it? You thought they were numbskulls and wanted them gone, anyway.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#216  Postby zulumoose » Jun 15, 2018 11:06 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:Great stance guys, great stance.


Looks awkward and unstable doesn't it?
I only have experience with archery, but still, I can't imagine that stance is an effective one to train people on.
But if you google "competition pistol shooting stance" as I just did, it seems to be common.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#217  Postby Hermit » Jun 17, 2018 3:57 am

Macdoc wrote:
HERE’S WHAT HAPPENED WHEN AUSTRALIA BANNED SEMI-AUTOMATIC AND AUTOMATIC WEAPONS
A lesson for American lawmakers

[snip]

In the span of less than a year, they were able to seize an astonishing 650,000 guns, all of which were destroyed. In the seven years after the ban, suicides by gun dropped an astonishing 57 percent and homicides by guns dropped 47 percent.

Will America learn from Australia? Likely not. But if history is any indicator as to what could happen when tighter gun regulations are put into place, hopefully politicians here will start to take note.

https://massappeal.com/australia-automatic-weapons-guns-ban/

Talk about lying with statistics.

While it is true that there was a massive drop in both suicides and homicides by guns, have a look at total suicides per 100,000 in the years before and after the buyback scheme.

1994 12.6
1995 13.1
1996 13.1
1997 14.7
1998 14.3

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/library/prspub/959600/upload_binary/959600.pdf;fileType=application/pdf#search=%22background%20note%20%28parliamentary%20library,%20australia%29%22 PDF, page 18


So, what about homicides? Three years before the buyback scheme the rate of homicides by any means was 1.7/100,000. Three years after the buyback scheme it was - wait for it - 1.8/100,000.

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/9A58BD5A4617CFDFCA256BC900057A53/$File/45100_2001.pdf PDF, page 15

There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that the buyback scheme made any difference to suicide and homicide rates. People just found other means to achieve the same ends.


That said, I found a correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates in the USA by pasting gun ownership rates by USA states and homicide rates by USA states into Libre Office Calc and letting its algorithm work out a trend line. The correlation of more guns, more homicide is undeniable.

Image

What gives? I think the critical difference between Australia and the USA is that private ownership of concealable hand guns has been almost completely banned long before the buyback scheme. Of all homicides in Australia homicide by firearm consisted of only a very small percentage long before that buyback scheme took 20% of privately owned firearms out of circulation. Most homicides in the USA, on the other hand, are committed with precisely those weapons. They are easily carried, concealable and can be stored in bedside drawers, glove boxes, one's pocket, bra... just about anywhere.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#218  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 17, 2018 4:43 am

Hermit wrote:The correlation of more guns, more homicide is undeniable.


Even without performing the regression in consideration of the uncertainties in the individual data points (since we do not, for example, know exactly how many households have guns), it is possible to estimate the error in the positive slope indicated on the graph. LIbre Office may not be capable of giving that estimate, but if it is, you should mention it. The correlation may be undeniable, at that scale, but it is not overwhelmingly impressive. Avoid publishing a regression showing that much noise in what is essentially a time series input signal without giving an estimate of the uncertainty in the slope, especially when complaining about "lying with statistics".

It's also misleading to place the mortality per 100000 on the horizontal axis, because that is your output signal.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jun 17, 2018 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#219  Postby Hermit » Jun 17, 2018 4:47 am

Cito di Pense wrote:The correlation may be undeniable, at that scale, but it is not overwhelmingly impressive.

Thanks, and agreed. :mrgreen:
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#220  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 17, 2018 4:56 am

Hermit wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:The correlation may be undeniable, at that scale, but it is not overwhelmingly impressive.

Thanks, and agreed. :mrgreen:


Just to be clear, that's not what I was seeking agreement on, and suggests you're mainly interested in your conclusion, and not in the robustness of your analysis. I mean, I can guess that both gun ownership and mortality from gunshots are increasing slowly, but I can also guess that population is increasing in the same time series, and that gun murders are not making a noticeable dent in the population increase.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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