Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

Interdisciplinary Group on Preventing School and Community Violence

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#361  Postby Greg the Grouper » Jan 08, 2023 2:22 pm

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#362  Postby The_Piper » Jan 08, 2023 8:44 pm

Bizarre, totally whacky, and entirely predictable. Not much else to say, except I hope the teacher recovers and the child too. Who the hell let a gun get into his hands and how the hell did he get into the classroom with it undetected? Never mind even. Who the hell is careless enough to leave a gun where a 6 year old can take it? Oh wait, roughly 1/3 of the country.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#363  Postby CarlPierce » Jan 09, 2023 2:46 am

If only the 'good guy' kids in the class were armed. Perhaps we could have a gun prefect whose job is gunning down any ' bad guy' kids, they could receive training in target identification and neutralization.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#364  Postby Caper » Jan 09, 2023 2:29 pm

CarlPierce wrote:If only the 'good guy' kids in the class were armed. Perhaps we could have a gun prefect whose job is gunning down any ' bad guy' kids, they could receive training in target identification and neutralization.


Would that be before or after theoretical physics class?
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#365  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 10, 2023 7:00 pm

BBC wrote:While gun violence plays out at American schools multiple times each year, the shooters are almost never this young. Since 1970, 18 school shootings were perpetrated by children under 9, according to the K-12 School Shooting Database. Those cases represent a sliver of the more than 2,200 school shootings in the database.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#366  Postby The_Metatron » May 08, 2023 7:51 am

I’ve been trying to form a plan to deal with the trend line of gun violence over here.

The situation is grim. The State, to include lawmakers, police, and judges, at all levels of government, is entirely unable and unwilling to solve the problem. “Thoughts and prayers” is about all the State is good for.

What is needed is a means to instill, if not the morality to not mow down others, at least the fear to do so. The assholes with their assault rifles don’t value their own lives. So, how does one apply pressure to them? As one changes the behavior of a child, the answer is to find what they do value and put that at risk. Their families, their friends, their homes. Putting those things at risk for murderous behavior may give such a person a moment of pause.

Of course, we can’t start a movement that goes around killing the families of these mass shooters. I thought about simply making up tales of such vengeance, creating what would essentially propaganda. Nothing on the internets is verifiable any more, and no one bothers to check anyway, so if one publishes something, it will be accepted as fact. The problem with that then becomes one of incitement. There are an awful lot of victims over here, and it wouldn’t take a lot to push some over the edge to action. That can’t be the way forward.

However, I simply cannot be the first person to imagine executing a vendetta if someone kills one of my family. I am certain such revenge killings happen. I’d be very surprised if there weren’t, actually. I bet this has always happened.

Project Vindictus could exist to observe and report such vendettas broadly. It could serve to demonstrate that this is an observed and expected human behavior. I suspect such vendettas are rarely reported, owing to that very fear that other victims of these murders will think it’s a good idea. Except, if vengeance actually is an expected behavior, Project Vindictus could connect the dots between a typical mass murderer and the extermination of that murderer’s family and friends. The white supremacists over here may then think twice before taking their assault rifles to a shopping mall.

With more guns, more people, more mass murders, a government that will never solve this problem, more vendettas are going to happen. I think the goal of Vindictus is to make certain these gun toting monsters understand that. They aren’t the only ones who know how to use violence.

Vindictus would have to be utterly open, to prevent it being used as a source of disinformation which leads back to the incitement problem. No, Vindictus must not encourage, only observe and report.

The NRA has, for decades, used a similar approach to instill fear into their membership with a section in their magazine called “The Armed Citizen”. Anecdotes that promote fear of the bad guy with a gun, that only the good guy with the gun could stop. That magazine section sells trainloads of guns here, and always has. Vindictus could exist to use that same tactic to instill into these murderers the fear of one of their victims’ families doing the same to the mass murderer’s family.

Project Vindictus is my idea, and needs work I’m sure.

It’s one thing to go down in a blaze of white power glory. It’s entirely another if that gets your kids killed, though.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#367  Postby THWOTH » May 08, 2023 9:21 am

The_Metatron wrote:I’ve been trying to form a plan to deal with the trend line of gun violence over here.

The situation is grim. The State, to include lawmakers, police, and judges, at all levels of government, is entirely unable and unwilling to solve the problem. “Thoughts and prayers” is about all the State is good for.

What is needed is a means to instill, if not the morality to not mow down others, at least the fear to do so. The assholes with their assault rifles don’t value their own lives. So, how does one apply pressure to them? As one changes the behavior of a child, the answer is to find what they do value and put that at risk. Their families, their friends, their homes. Putting those things at risk for murderous behavior may give such a person a moment of pause.

Of course, we can’t start a movement that goes around killing the families of these mass shooters. I thought about simply making up tales of such vengeance, creating what would essentially propaganda. Nothing on the internets is verifiable any more, and no one bothers to check anyway, so if one publishes something, it will be accepted as fact. The problem with that then becomes one of incitement. There are an awful lot of victims over here, and it wouldn’t take a lot to push some over the edge to action. That can’t be the way forward.

However, I simply cannot be the first person to imagine executing a vendetta if someone kills one of my family. I am certain such revenge killings happen. I’d be very surprised if there weren’t, actually. I bet this has always happened.

Project Vindictus could exist to observe and report such vendettas broadly. It could serve to demonstrate that this is an observed and expected human behavior. I suspect such vendettas are rarely reported, owing to that very fear that other victims of these murders will think it’s a good idea. Except, if vengeance actually is an expected behavior, Project Vindictus could connect the dots between a typical mass murderer and the extermination of that murderer’s family and friends. The white supremacists over here may then think twice before taking their assault rifles to a shopping mall.

With more guns, more people, more mass murders, a government that will never solve this problem, more vendettas are going to happen. I think the goal of Vindictus is to make certain these gun toting monsters understand that. They aren’t the only ones who know how to use violence.

Vindictus would have to be utterly open, to prevent it being used as a source of disinformation which leads back to the incitement problem. No, Vindictus must not encourage, only observe and report.

The NRA has, for decades, used a similar approach to instill fear into their membership with a section in their magazine called “The Armed Citizen”. Anecdotes that promote fear of the bad guy with a gun, that only the good guy with the gun could stop. That magazine section sells trainloads of guns here, and always has. Vindictus could exist to use that same tactic to instill into these murderers the fear of one of their victims’ families doing the same to the mass murderer’s family.

Project Vindictus is my idea, and needs work I’m sure.

It’s one thing to go down in a blaze of white power glory. It’s entirely another if that gets your kids killed, though.


I fear that this approach only perpetuates the violence you're seeking to de-escalate. That this seems reasonable to you highlights the cultural idea that violence is legitimate when it's deemed righteous, and that's it's righteous when we feel very strongly that it's a reasonable or valid response. Against that kind of background, can violence be reduced and the community disarmed by the threat or fear of more violence - by some members of the community taking the law into their own hands and deploying 'moral violence' against those they consider immorally violent? Are not the criminal justice and policing systems already mandated to do exactly that? And yet here we are, basically talking about a modern day version of lynchings and burning crosses.

What I'd say is that the causes and expressions of violence in the community do not rest on the failures of policing - either from the state or from the community itself. Removing or eliminating violent individuals from the community doesn't address the issues they represent, express and embody. These issues arise from a complex of other cultural, political, economic, and personal issues, and can only be addressed by and through forms of education that inform people about those issues and, importantly, gives them the tools and the means to address them.

When a society is violent then it's the whole society that needs rehabilitation, not the individual.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#368  Postby Tortured_Genius » May 08, 2023 9:36 am

(In reply to The_Metatron above)

As you mention in the second paragraph - it's the state that is the problem.

If you look at what Americans actually think (I googled for a relevant Gallup poll here) the overwhelming majority favour greater gun control, deeper background checks, "assault weapons" bans, etc, etc. These aren't close majorities either - we are looking at 70-90% of people being in favour of such controls and checks.

The unavoidable conclusion is that the states and politicians blocking such measures quite simply don't represent the will of the people.

It's a bit dull, but I think the answer is to campaign for a more representative democracy generally. Get rid of the gerrymandering and purchasing of politicians by vested interests. Kick out the crooked pols who are the best money can buy (including those in the judiciary), by highlighting who paid for them and those who sit on their hands whilst kids die. Then and only then might you get legislation that reflects what people actually want.

No illusions though, this is a tall order with the crooks already embedded in positions of power.

(From the UK, a sodding theological monarchy with actual bishops in the upper chamber no less, the USA looks like a travesty of democracy bought and paid for by an entrenched monied ruling class who cling on to power by gaming an easily corruptible system. It hurts because it's like watching a loved friend shooting up on heroine).

Unfortunately, I suspect the Vindictus thing is a non-starter. By their very nature mass murders don't tend to give a shit about other people and the perps starting their killing spree with their own family is a not uncommon pattern.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#369  Postby sean_w » May 08, 2023 10:00 am

THWOTH wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:I’ve been trying to form a plan to deal with the trend line of gun violence over here.

The situation is grim. The State, to include lawmakers, police, and judges, at all levels of government, is entirely unable and unwilling to solve the problem. “Thoughts and prayers” is about all the State is good for.

What is needed is a means to instill, if not the morality to not mow down others, at least the fear to do so. The assholes with their assault rifles don’t value their own lives. So, how does one apply pressure to them? As one changes the behavior of a child, the answer is to find what they do value and put that at risk. Their families, their friends, their homes. Putting those things at risk for murderous behavior may give such a person a moment of pause.

Of course, we can’t start a movement that goes around killing the families of these mass shooters. I thought about simply making up tales of such vengeance, creating what would essentially propaganda. Nothing on the internets is verifiable any more, and no one bothers to check anyway, so if one publishes something, it will be accepted as fact. The problem with that then becomes one of incitement. There are an awful lot of victims over here, and it wouldn’t take a lot to push some over the edge to action. That can’t be the way forward.

However, I simply cannot be the first person to imagine executing a vendetta if someone kills one of my family. I am certain such revenge killings happen. I’d be very surprised if there weren’t, actually. I bet this has always happened.

Project Vindictus could exist to observe and report such vendettas broadly. It could serve to demonstrate that this is an observed and expected human behavior. I suspect such vendettas are rarely reported, owing to that very fear that other victims of these murders will think it’s a good idea. Except, if vengeance actually is an expected behavior, Project Vindictus could connect the dots between a typical mass murderer and the extermination of that murderer’s family and friends. The white supremacists over here may then think twice before taking their assault rifles to a shopping mall.

With more guns, more people, more mass murders, a government that will never solve this problem, more vendettas are going to happen. I think the goal of Vindictus is to make certain these gun toting monsters understand that. They aren’t the only ones who know how to use violence.

Vindictus would have to be utterly open, to prevent it being used as a source of disinformation which leads back to the incitement problem. No, Vindictus must not encourage, only observe and report.

The NRA has, for decades, used a similar approach to instill fear into their membership with a section in their magazine called “The Armed Citizen”. Anecdotes that promote fear of the bad guy with a gun, that only the good guy with the gun could stop. That magazine section sells trainloads of guns here, and always has. Vindictus could exist to use that same tactic to instill into these murderers the fear of one of their victims’ families doing the same to the mass murderer’s family.

Project Vindictus is my idea, and needs work I’m sure.

It’s one thing to go down in a blaze of white power glory. It’s entirely another if that gets your kids killed, though.
I fear that this approach only perpetuates the violence you're seeking to de-escalate. That this seems reasonable to you highlights the cultural idea that violence is legitimate when it's deemed righteous, and that's it's righteous when we feel very strongly that it's a reasonable or valid response. Against that kind of background, can violence be reduced and the community disarmed by the threat or fear of more violence - by some members of the community taking the law into their own hands and deploying moral violence against those they consider immorally violent? Are not the criminal justice and policing systems already mandated to do exactly that? And yet here we are, basically talking about a modern day version of lynchings and burning crosses.

What I'd say is that the causes and expressions of violence in the community do not rest on the failures of policing - either from the state or from the community itself. Removing or eliminating violent individuals from the community doesn't address the issues they represent, express and embody. These issues arise from a complex of other cultural, political, economic, and personal issues, and can only be addressed by and through forms of education that inform people about those issues and, importantly, gives them the tools and the means to address them.

When a society is violent then it's the whole society that needs rehabilitation, not the individual.


But I’m sure gun violence in poor black communities is largely the result of awful policing. The solution is justice reform, truckloads of cash, and time. Oh, and we definitely need to remove violent individuals—zero tolerance on that front. You’re trying to stop trauma.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#370  Postby THWOTH » May 08, 2023 11:38 am

sean_w wrote:...

But I’m sure gun violence in poor black communities is largely the result of awful policing. The solution is justice reform, truckloads of cash, and time. Oh, and we definitely need to remove violent individuals—zero tolerance on that front. You’re trying to stop trauma.

Yep, the role of the state and its institutions in facilitating and perpetuating violence against individuals and groups needs to be examined and addressed, including the operation of the justice and policing systems. And society does need systems in place to protect itself from violent individuals. Absolutely.

Aside from the whole righteous vigilante thing, my point was that individualising the issue--the 'bad apple' nonsense we hear so often in response to any number of horrors--does not address the deeper social, cultural, political and economic problems that impact people's lives and inform their attitudes, behaviours and experiences. I'm not disagreeing with you here, or indeed with anything you said to TM above, I simply frame it in terms of a social requirement for a broader, more sustained social or civic education, rather than as a (quite understandable) need for an immediate reactive response to individual events. Let's face it, as necessary as it is to deal with violent people, taking action against them after the fact doesn't, and clearly hasn't changed very much. But for clarity, I probably should've closed my previous post with: When a society is mired in violence then it's the whole society that needs rehabilitation, and not just its violent individuals.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#371  Postby sean_w » May 08, 2023 1:30 pm

I understand. In my opinion the crazed gunman is an intractable situation. We're shit out of luck. We may as well pray that God rapture all guns to heaven for the war against Satan. But most of our gun violence is related to problems that do have solutions. Education may be a part of that. But if you've tried to do it then you know the struggle is real. The problems you're trying to address through education have --and continue to-- diminish a person's ability to learn. What we need is distance from all the trauma, and that's going to take time, and to get that time we need truckloads of money; no strings attached, fuck off cash.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#372  Postby THWOTH » May 08, 2023 3:36 pm

sean_w wrote:I understand. In my opinion the crazed gunman is an intractable situation. We're shit out of luck. We may as well pray that God rapture all guns to heaven for the war against Satan. But most of our gun violence is related to problems that do have solutions. Education may be a part of that. But if you've tried to do it then you know the struggle is real. The problems you're trying to address through education have --and continue to-- diminish a person's ability to learn. What we need is distance from all the trauma, and that's going to take time, and to get that time we need truckloads of money; no strings attached, fuck off cash.

What do you think are the problems that have no solutions?
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#373  Postby sean_w » May 08, 2023 4:03 pm

The mass shooter.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#374  Postby THWOTH » May 08, 2023 9:01 pm

sean_w wrote:The mass shooter.


Well, you can start by denying people access to guns and ammo. Even so, mass-shooting isn't a feature of, say, Swiss society, even though gun ownership is relatively high - so there's something else going on here besides the prevalence of guns. Again, I come back to education (in the broad sense) as the only way to stem the drift towards extreme violence and/or shift the culture away from it. But that's a generational project. There's no, erm, silver bullet.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#375  Postby Animavore » May 09, 2023 6:12 am

Here's an online post from one if the more recent shooters.

Screenshot_20230509-070056_Reddit.jpg
Screenshot_20230509-070056_Reddit.jpg (523.57 KiB) Viewed 545 times


There seems to be a trend towards this kind of radicalisation in quite a few of the shooters of late. The site used here is a Russian site called Odnoklassniki (Classmates) which is completely unmoderated.

Besides gun control maybe another strategy would be to crack down on these 'incel' websites which are freely promoting all forms of hatred? Including, it seems, self hatred.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#376  Postby sean_w » May 09, 2023 11:41 am

THWOTH wrote:
sean_w wrote:The mass shooter.


Well, you can start by denying people access to guns and ammo. Even so, mass-shooting isn't a feature of, say, Swiss society, even though gun ownership is relatively high - so there's something else going on here besides the prevalence of guns. Again, I come back to education (in the broad sense) as the only way to stem the drift towards extreme violence and/or shift the culture away from it. But that's a generational project. There's no, erm, silver bullet.


Yes, making it more difficult to get a gun would help. It's important to note however that we have many more guns to regulate, and a much more difficult environment in which to do it. As for education, that's not really what you're talking about is it? My understanding is that where education has contributed to reducing violence, it has done so with the help of existing social and political forces. But you seem to be suggesting education as a means to bring about those helpful forces. In other words, you hope to educate the US into a better culture.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#377  Postby Spearthrower » May 09, 2023 12:25 pm

Stunning that women aren't interested in a guy who thinks they're just holes and tits.

But yeah, tis that internet radicalisation acting on young, impressionable, and angsty brains.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#378  Postby THWOTH » May 09, 2023 2:56 pm

sean_w wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
sean_w wrote:The mass shooter.


Well, you can start by denying people access to guns and ammo. Even so, mass-shooting isn't a feature of, say, Swiss society, even though gun ownership is relatively high - so there's something else going on here besides the prevalence of guns. Again, I come back to education (in the broad sense) as the only way to stem the drift towards extreme violence and/or shift the culture away from it. But that's a generational project. There's no, erm, silver bullet.


Yes, making it more difficult to get a gun would help. It's important to note however that we have many more guns to regulate, and a much more difficult environment in which to do it. As for education, that's not really what you're talking about is it? My understanding is that where education has contributed to reducing violence, it has done so with the help of existing social and political forces. But you seem to be suggesting education as a means to bring about those helpful forces. In other words, you hope to educate the US into a better culture.


No. I'm using 'education' broadly to cover many things that lead to identifying issues, understanding them, and finding ways to effectively address them - all means by which to make improvement, in outcomes, of and in personal, social, political and economics relations etc. Campaigning is part of that education, so is history, protest, and reform. Education isn't just stuff that happens on schools. The question isn't about whether 'I hope to educate the US into a better culture', but about what kind of culture the US hopes to become and how it might achieves it. I fear that saying there are no solutions to the mass shooter problem is just another way to say that things can never really change - that the mass shooter is just the writ of God, like the breeze or the sunrise.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#379  Postby sean_w » May 09, 2023 7:08 pm

I’m sorry, but that looks like hand-waving to me. There’s a solution, and it just so happens to be a bit of everything.

It’s true that I view the mass shooter as inevitable. Like the sunrise it’s every day now.

But I don’t think of it as being necessarily permanent, we could eventually see fewer of them.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#380  Postby THWOTH » May 10, 2023 7:08 am

sean_w wrote:I’m sorry, but that looks like hand-waving to me. There’s a solution, and it just so happens to be a bit of everything.

It’s true that I view the mass shooter as inevitable. Like the sunrise it’s every day now.

But I don’t think of it as being necessarily permanent, we could eventually see fewer of them.
Yes, but a lot of everything. To change a system you have to understand it and its impacts and have some idea about alternatives. To change attitudes or values you need to understand where they come from, how they influence things, and the reasons for thinking or behaving differently. Dismantling or reforming systems takes time and usually money, and the reasons for doing things the old way have to be replaced with reasons for doing things differently. Systems and attitudes influence each other. Some people call that process of reform campaigning, or politics, or economics. I think it can all be covered by 'education' because it all relies on developing practical knowledge and understanding about systems, each other, and ourselves, and then working together to change things. Developing a theory of change is difficult, laborious. Implementing it is even harder. But without one we're only left with tinkering around the edges of the system rather than changing it.
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