Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

Interdisciplinary Group on Preventing School and Community Violence

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#81  Postby Macdoc » Mar 22, 2018 8:29 pm

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#82  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 22, 2018 9:05 pm

It’s cool that is the cover.

However, it isn’t nearly enough. I am certain that the requisite number of kids have not been gunned down to effect change here.


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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#83  Postby willhud9 » Mar 22, 2018 11:32 pm

Happy Birthday Jesse!

I am also really annoyed by the right's obnoxious tooting of their ideological horn due to the Maryland shooting that occurred where the resource officer shot at the kid who shot his ex-girlfriend and another male student.

The media is acting like the resource officer stopped a mass shooting, but the reality is the kid was not trying to randomly kill people. He had a specific target in mind: his ex. In the time it took the resource officer to get to the shooter, the shooter did not fire at anyone else or attempt to fire at anyone else from all accounts.

But there does remain the little cared fact that a high school student was able to just get a gun to use for an attempted murder. But nah, focus on how the "good guy with a gun" stopped the "bad guy with a gun" even though by all accounts the "bad guy" was not demonstrating any further malice towards other students. And the "good guy with a gun" still could not prevent the girl from being shot.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#84  Postby laklak » Mar 23, 2018 3:07 am

Apparently the gun was his father's, and was legally registered. Maryland has among the strictest gun laws in the country - "assault weapon" ban, 10 round mag restriction, shall issue carry permits, permits for handguns.

Charge the father as an accessory before the fact, his kid should never have gotten his hands on that gun.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#85  Postby willhud9 » Mar 23, 2018 3:11 am

laklak wrote:Apparently the gun was his father's, and was legally registered. Maryland has among the strictest gun laws in the country - "assault weapon" ban, 10 round mag restriction, shall issue carry permits, permits for handguns.

Charge the father as an accessory before the fact, his kid should never have gotten his hands on that gun.


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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#86  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 23, 2018 3:11 am

You know, that’s a really good approach, too.

Make the gun owner responsible for everything that gun does, forever. Especially if it got stolen. This problem would end tonight.


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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#87  Postby Sendraks » Mar 23, 2018 10:25 am

The_Metatron wrote:
Make the gun owner responsible for everything that gun does, forever. Especially if it got stolen. This problem would end tonight.


Gun Owner has to report the gun as stolen and how they allowed it to be stolen, which could be an offence in and of itself, if they were careless. If they report the theft and take whatever repercussions arise from that, then they're no longer responsible for the firearm.

If they don't report the theft then yes, they absolutely should be held liable for any crimes committed with the firearm.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#88  Postby The_Piper » Mar 23, 2018 12:53 pm

The other day a kid was fighting with his sister over a game controller. He took the loaded gun out of the nightstand and shot her in the back of the head. The parents must be suffering a great deal, that they are partially culpable. https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/19/us/boy-shot-sister-over-video-game-trnd/index.html

I don't know what they're thinking. It's not a worthy trade-off, keeping fast access to the gun, when there are kids in the house. I don't care how obedient you think they are.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#89  Postby laklak » Mar 23, 2018 2:19 pm

There are finger or handprint gun safes that provide both quick access and security. Plus, there are these new things called "door locks", "alarm systems", and the most useful, "dogs".
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#90  Postby The_Piper » Mar 23, 2018 5:07 pm

Stricter gun storage laws are a good idea where they don't exist and would help. A counter argument might be that they are an added expense that many can't afford. But keeping a vehicle road-worthy enough to pass state inspection, (where applicable), is an added expense that is accepted by most people, in the interest of safety. I don't think I really need to make any more arguments in favor of strict gun storage laws at this forum.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#91  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 23, 2018 5:08 pm

Sendraks wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Make the gun owner responsible for everything that gun does, forever. Especially if it got stolen. This problem would end tonight.

Gun Owner has to report the gun as stolen and how they allowed it to be stolen, which could be an offence in and of itself, if they were careless. If they report the theft and take whatever repercussions arise from that, then they're no longer responsible for the firearm.

If they don't report the theft then yes, they absolutely should be held liable for any crimes committed with the firearm.

No, I’m not going to be that generous. No free pass. No matter the circumstances of a theft, that gun wouldn’t have fucking been there to be stolen if gun owner hasn’t bought it.

Responsibility.

If that’s too tall an order, leave the guns alone.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#92  Postby Sendraks » Mar 23, 2018 5:32 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
No, I’m not going to be that generous. No free pass. No matter the circumstances of a theft, that gun wouldn’t have fucking been there to be stolen if gun owner hasn’t bought it.

Responsibility.

If that’s too tall an order, leave the guns alone.


I appreciate that you're not being generous.

My father has firearms. Shotguns specifically. They are kept in a secure safe. Somewhere in my parents house that someone without knowledge of the premises, would need to take a while to locate. Only my father knows where the key to his gun safe is kept.

If someone broke into my parents house and either absconded with the gun safe or broke into somehow (fuck knows how) and then absconded with those firearms, then the matter is simple. My father reports the theft to the police and is able to demonstrate that he took reasonable precaution to secure those firearms against them being used by any person other than himself. Indeed, the police already know this, having done a spot check on the property some years ago.

That's where the matter ends. My father has taken reasonable precautions. His responsibility concludes.

If some jackass leaves their firearm in an unlocked bedside draw, then they should face severe penalties for not taking reasonable precautions to prevent its theft, should they declare the theft. And if they don't declare the theft, then they should be treated as an accessory to crimes committed by the firearm.

And if my father, didn't declare the theft, the same should apply to him.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#93  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 23, 2018 11:17 pm

Yeah, I probably ought to compromise a bit on my position.

I formed it when I disposed of my last firearm by surrendering it to the Belgian national police for destruction. I was done using it, and I didn't want to sell it to someone else, keeping it in circulation. Once you sell a gun, there's no way to know what the next asshole is going to do with it. I felt very satisfied that I had safely owned that pistol through its entire life cycle. Now, it no longer exists.

The next guy can buy his own damned gun.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#94  Postby Macdoc » Mar 24, 2018 12:33 am

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HERE’S WHAT HAPPENED WHEN AUSTRALIA BANNED SEMI-AUTOMATIC AND AUTOMATIC WEAPONS
A lesson for American lawmakers
America has a gun problem. We have the highest gun ownership per capita than any other country in the world. Even the brother of the Las Vegas man who killed at least 58 people and left hundreds of others injured last minute was perplexed as to why and how his relative had so many automatic weapons. The shooter, Stephan Paddock, had ten guns with him, a few of which were fully automatic.

Australia made the decision in 1996 to ban semi-automatic and automatic weapons, and in the following years the homicide and suicide rates for the country declined sharply.

The reason for the ban was a mass shooting, a tragedy that we’re all too familiar with here in America.

In the spring of 1996, Martin Bryant went on a rampage in Port Arthur on the Australian island of Tasmania, killing 35 people and injuring 28 others. John Howard, the newly elected Prime Minister at the time, knew something had to be done and what he realized is something that lawmakers here in the Untied States are still unable to grasp: guns kill people, and fully automatic weapons kill even more people.

The National Firearms Agreement was passed just one month after the shooting. This put into place a ban on all semi-automatic weapons, automatic weapons and shotguns. It also put into place an incredibly tight regulations as to who and how people purchased guns and required a registration system for all legal guns.

“I knew that I had to use the authority of my office to curb the possession and use of the type of weapons that killed 35 innocent people,” Howard wrote in the New York Times. “I also knew it wouldn’t be easy,” he also said.

It turns out though, it was pretty easy.

The country had to figure out what to do with all the newly banned guns, so it offered their citizens a mandatory buyback program and also granted amnesty to people who had illegally obtained guns if they turned them in.

In the span of less than a year, they were able to seize an astonishing 650,000 guns, all of which were destroyed. In the seven years after the ban, suicides by gun dropped an astonishing 57 percent and homicides by guns dropped 47 percent.

Will America learn from Australia? Likely not. But if history is any indicator as to what could happen when tighter gun regulations are put into place, hopefully politicians here will start to take note.


https://massappeal.com/australia-automa ... -guns-ban/

Australia has only 6% of the population of the US

10,833,333. guns destroyed would be the US equivalent unfortunately that still leaves some 290 million :nono:
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#95  Postby willhud9 » Mar 24, 2018 5:41 am

Well of course suicide by gun decreased. The more relevant statistic is did suicide in general decrease or did the means of which attempts of suicide just get shifted around? Obviously guns are more fatal than other attempts, but not by much. Guns just happen to be impersonal. Having contemplated the several ways to quickly and painlessly kill myself a gun would be better off, but the three times I’ve seriously contemplated ending my life I had no access to a gun, but that made my thoughts detour to hanging (no good fixture to connect a rope to), asphyxiation (which I tried via plastic bag), and walking into traffic (which was the stupidest thing I’ve ever done as I put others at jeopardy). Suicide sucks. Battling those thoughts suck. There are days I would love nothing more than to have those feelings just end. Suicidal people will find ways to attempt suicide. I don’t quite get the focus on suicide via gun aside from the finality of it. But it’s a cold statistic which ignores the plight of suicide itself.

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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#96  Postby OlivierK » Mar 24, 2018 7:15 am

Yes, it would be nice if people didn't overstate the benefits of the 1996 gun reforms in Australia (especially by implying that pre-1996 gun laws in Australia were anything like current US laws - they weren't).

The homicide rate, in particular, was pretty much unaffected (it continued a steady downward trend at a similar rate than pre-1996) as our homicide rate was already low by US standards, with few gun homicides, because our gun laws were already strict pre-1996. The 1996 reforms specifically targeted mass shootings by outlawing rapid-fire weapons, and were very successful in that regard, but those deaths were only ever a tiny fraction of homicides, so expecting a large effect isn't sensible anyway. The national requirements for licensing, registration and storage were, in practice, little more than harmonising a diverse set of state laws into a single national standard. For most states, there was little change (handguns already required registration in every state, and long arms in most), although the national standard was generally set at the most rigorous standard of any state - no state went backwards in the agreement.

There was a reduction in gun suicide, and I've seen papers that analysed the degree to which substitution of method occurred, and found that the decline in gun suicide was not matched by a rise in suicides by other methods (which actually also declined post 1996).

Here's a decent fact check article on the effects of the reforms: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/f ... ur/7254880
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#97  Postby Macdoc » Mar 24, 2018 6:07 pm

Might be the correct time

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https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018 ... dents.html


Midterms coming up, corporate support for changes and Repuglies in disarray. .....
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#98  Postby I'm With Stupid » Mar 24, 2018 8:49 pm

The_Metatron wrote:It’s cool that is the cover.

However, it isn’t nearly enough. I am certain that the requisite number of kids have not been gunned down to effect change here.

That's not generally the way these kind of things work though. People were arrested for not giving up their seat before Rosa Parks, but that's the one that inspired people to campaign. This could be similar. Hopefully.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#99  Postby OlivierK » Mar 24, 2018 9:17 pm

Macdoc wrote:Might be the correct time

Image

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018 ... dents.html


Midterms coming up, corporate support for changes and Repuglies in disarray. .....

We can but hope...

The thing I've been most impressed with is the activists' willingness to turn the NRA's output on itself, asking people to look at their local representatives ratings as published by the NRA themselves, and vote them out if they got an A+ from the NRA on their voting record. I hope they've got the persistence to settle in for a long fight, though, because progress is going to take a long time coming.
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Re: Call for Action to Prevent Gun Violence in the United States

#100  Postby Warren Dew » Mar 24, 2018 9:44 pm

willhud9 wrote:Well of course suicide by gun decreased. The more relevant statistic is did suicide in general decrease or did the means of which attempts of suicide just get shifted around? Obviously guns are more fatal than other attempts, but not by much. Guns just happen to be impersonal. Having contemplated the several ways to quickly and painlessly kill myself a gun would be better off, but the three times I’ve seriously contemplated ending my life I had no access to a gun, but that made my thoughts detour to hanging (no good fixture to connect a rope to), asphyxiation (which I tried via plastic bag), and walking into traffic (which was the stupidest thing I’ve ever done as I put others at jeopardy). Suicide sucks. Battling those thoughts suck. There are days I would love nothing more than to have those feelings just end. Suicidal people will find ways to attempt suicide. I don’t quite get the focus on suicide via gun aside from the finality of it. But it’s a cold statistic which ignores the plight of suicide itself.

I hate when people use it as a device.

In Japan, hanging from trees is a popular method:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/73288/15 ... ide-forest

Clearly the solution to suicide in Japan is to cut down every tree there.
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