Wiðercora wrote:Alright, exemplify him. But what I said still stands.

homeopathic medicine is sold in all the pharmacies in germany and put on par with herbal medicine,even my friend who is otherwise very smart gives it to her small daughter,surely the government shouldn't let that stuff be sold for what it doesn't do.

Wiðercora wrote:Alright, exemplify him. But what I said still stands.

You mean "exempt"?

And anyways, why do you think he would be special? The "charlatans at the top" could very well be just as convinced as anyone. Maybe even more than most, as they have a stronger motivation to believe that it works.

I'm starting up in my friend's kung-fu club tomorrow. I had to tell him in advance I'm going for the training and nothing else and to warn the homeopathist, the reflexologist and the chi master to stay the fuck away from me because I will go through them for a short-cut if they even think about approaching me. Now after reading this I'm going to have to reiterate it and make sure he knows I'm deadly serious because stuff like this makes me fume and I will jam this down that prick's throat if he even thinks about challenging me on this issue.

cherries wrote:
homeopathic medicine is sold in all the pharmacies in germany and put on par with herbal medicine,even my friend who is otherwise very smart gives it to her small daughter,surely the government shouldn't let that stuff be sold for what it doesn't do.

We've just achieved the same and are very proud to have followed the example of great European nations like Germany in this respect ... yay, we're not so backward any more, we're modern and civilised and have embraced homeopathy!

Where before homeopathic water could only be administered by professional quacks, real pharmacists, who should know better, are now busy "training" and getting licences so they can counsel customers on homeopathic self-treatment.

On the other hand, I suppose as long as people are advised to see a real doctor for anything potentially serious, something a qualified pharmacist will probably still do even if they hold a licence for selling water, I suppose selling these "drugs" in pharmacies might actually be less harmful than having patients flock to homeopaths.

katja z wrote:
On the other hand, I suppose as long as people are advised to see a real doctor for anything potentially serious, something a qualified pharmacist will probably still do even if they hold a licence for selling water, I suppose selling these "drugs" in pharmacies might actually be less harmful than having patients flock to homeopaths.

The problem is that sellers of magic water don't refer people onto qualified doctors.
In the UK, 'sense about science' investigated homeopaths who were selling homeopathic anti-malarial potions;

http://www.senseaboutscience.org/pages/ ... pathy.html

They worked with the BBC newsnight team and went undercover to a number of magic water merchants and;

'They sent an undercover researcher in to say she was about to go in to a malaria infested country. They all recommended doses of homeopathic remedies - 99.99% water with an almost undetectable trace of effective remedies such as quinine. None of them directed the researcher to a GP or Travel Clinic. '

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 178122.stm

Scary stuff.

cherries wrote:

Wiðercora wrote:Alright, exemplify him. But what I said still stands.

homeopathic medicine is sold in all the pharmacies in germany and put on par with herbal medicine,even my friend who is otherwise very smart gives it to her small daughter,surely the government shouldn't let that stuff be sold for what it doesn't do.

The real problem is that virtually nobody in Germany has a clue what homeopathy actually is. People seem to think it Is just herbal medicine. I know plenty of people who laughed in disbelieve at me telling them about dilution an stuff.

Here homeopathic and herbal treatments tend to be lumped together. The Dutch are sceptical about it especially after a couple court cases which involved the death of a very well known TV presenter who died of cancer. She was being treated by one of the top mumbo-jumbo artists here.

Scot Dutchy wrote:Here homeopathic and herbal treatments tend to be lumped together. The Dutch are sceptical about it especially after a couple court cases which involved the death of a very well known TV presenter who died of cancer. She was being treated by one of the top mumbo-jumbo artists here.

Hopefully we can extract some good from Steve Jobs' death in a similar manner.

campermon wrote:They worked with the BBC newsnight team and went undercover to a number of magic water merchants and;

'They sent an undercover researcher in to say she was about to go in to a malaria infested country. They all recommended doses of homeopathic remedies - 99.99% water with an almost undetectable trace of effective remedies such as quinine. None of them directed the researcher to a GP or Travel Clinic.

Ah, yes, homeopathic malaria medicines... Very effective (in getting people killed, at least).

campermon wrote:

katja z wrote:
On the other hand, I suppose as long as people are advised to see a real doctor for anything potentially serious, something a qualified pharmacist will probably still do even if they hold a licence for selling water, I suppose selling these "drugs" in pharmacies might actually be less harmful than having patients flock to homeopaths.

The problem is that sellers of magic water don't refer people onto qualified doctors.

But that was exactly my point! Homeopaths often won't refer their patients to real doctors, but if a person comes to a normal pharmacy to buy homeopathic stuff for self-treatment, the qualified pharmacist who's there to counsel them will tell them to see their GP. Hence selling homeopathetic water in pharmacies might be a tad less harmful, because people will still be told not to try and use it to cure cancer or whatever.

Of course, on the other other hand, selling this stuff in pharmacies might make people who would otherwise be dubious about it think that it must be effective. And if you forbid it, it's the evil government preventing people from making choices about their own health and seeking effective treatment in collusion with the Big Pharma. It's a complicated issue.

katja z wrote:

campermon wrote:

katja z wrote:
On the other hand, I suppose as long as people are advised to see a real doctor for anything potentially serious, something a qualified pharmacist will probably still do even if they hold a licence for selling water, I suppose selling these "drugs" in pharmacies might actually be less harmful than having patients flock to homeopaths.

The problem is that sellers of magic water don't refer people onto qualified doctors.

But that was exactly my point! Homeopaths often won't refer their patients to real doctors, but if a person comes to a normal pharmacy to buy homeopathic stuff for self-treatment, the qualified pharmacist who's there to counsel them will tell them to see their GP. Hence selling homeopathetic water in pharmacies might be a tad less harmful, because people will still be told not to try and use it to cure cancer or whatever.

Of course, on the other other hand, selling this stuff in pharmacies might make people who would otherwise be dubious about it think that it must be effective. And if you forbid it, it's the evil government preventing people from making choices about their own health and seeking effective treatment in collusion with the Big Pharma. It's a complicated issue.

I'd like to see homeopathic medicines banned from being sold in pharmacies full stop.

The fact that magic remedies are being sold in places like Boots in the UK gives it a respectability it does not deserve.

Idiots.

Loren Michael wrote:Hopefully we can extract some good from Steve Jobs' death in a similar manner.

It doesn't seem that "alternative" treatments were a factor there:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011 ... e_jobs.php

campermon wrote: I'd like to see homeopathic medicines banned from being sold in pharmacies full stop.

The fact that magic remedies are being sold in places like Boots in the UK gives it a respectability it does not deserve.

Or short of a full ban, they should at least be required to prominently display disclaimers that there is actually no evidence that they work. They should meet the same criteria as any other pharmacological treatment if they are being sold as such. If they are being sold as "nutritional supplements" in health food stores and such, that gets a bit murkier. People who are hell bent on risking their health by relying on woo are going to do so, and I guess they have the right (with their own bodies, that is, not their children's). But as has been said, many people who are buying this stuff are simply unaware they are spending good money on tap water, and would not do so if they were given the appropriate information.

Shrunk wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:Hopefully we can extract some good from Steve Jobs' death in a similar manner.

It doesn't seem that "alternative" treatments were a factor there:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011 ... e_jobs.php

Ah, fair enough. Good to know.

katja z wrote:

But that was exactly my point! Homeopaths often won't refer their patients to real doctors, but if a person comes to a normal pharmacy to buy homeopathic stuff for self-treatment, the qualified pharmacist who's there to counsel them will tell them to see their GP. Hence selling homeopathetic water in pharmacies might be a tad less harmful, because people will still be told not to try and use it to cure cancer or whatever.

Of course, on the other other hand, selling this stuff in pharmacies might make people who would otherwise be dubious about it think that it must be effective. And if you forbid it, it's the evil government preventing people from making choices about their own health and seeking effective treatment in collusion with the Big Pharma. It's a complicated issue.

doctors here are prescribing homeopathic medicine and apparently health insurances offer it too
read this on some page:"today around 75%of german doctors will at least at some point or other prescribe homeopathic medicine".

this is a quote from a "zeit online" article:

The doctors keep up: in 2002 there were 4517 physicians who worked with an additional training in homeopathy, at the end of 2009 there were already 5834th .Even health insurance companies are now using the globules method and offer it as a service - not only because they are gaining new members, but also because it helps them to reduce expenses.

http://www.zeit.de/2010/50/Homoeopathie

cherries wrote:
doctors here are prescribing homeopathic medicine and apparently health insurances offer it too
read this on some page:"today around 75%of german doctors will at least at some point or other prescribe homeopathic medicine".

At least this can't happen here. A doctor can't prescribe homeopathic "drugs" - if they did, they would lose their licence to practice. You can either be a doctor or a homeopath, you have to choose. For now

cherries wrote: doctors here are prescribing homeopathic medicine and apparently health insurances offer it too
read this on some page:"today around 75%of german doctors will at least at some point or other prescribe homeopathic medicine".

this is a quote from a "zeit online" article:

The doctors keep up: in 2002 there were 4517 physicians who worked with an additional training in homeopathy, at the end of 2009 there were already 5834th .Even health insurance companies are now using the globules method and offer it as a service - not only because they are gaining new members, but also because it helps them to reduce expenses.

http://www.zeit.de/2010/50/Homoeopathie

OTOH, the reverse seems to be happening in the UK:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/8c29526a ... z1bcTLnJrV

katja z wrote:

cherries wrote:
doctors here are prescribing homeopathic medicine and apparently health insurances offer it too
read this on some page:"today around 75%of german doctors will at least at some point or other prescribe homeopathic medicine".

At least this can't happen here. A doctor can't prescribe homeopathic "drugs" - if they did, they would lose their licence to practice. You can either be a doctor or a homeopath, you have to choose. For now

..it's pretty bad because if a doctor prescribes it what else is a patient to believe but that it's proper medicine?

the medical community seems to be divided on this issue in germany even though there have been studies done there which show that this stuff doesn't work.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfRVCaA5o18[/youtube]

Should be required viewing for this topic.

EDIT: BTW in South Korea the >|< button in an elevator actually does work. it's the craziest thing!