The_Piper wrote:

noncredo wrote:

Memba the time he met with Putin and confiscated the translator's notes? then went on live TV to say he "doesn't see why Russia would want to" interfere with an election. then the next day read a statement that he meant to say he doesn't see how they wouldn't want to. Yeah, that sounds like intellectual honesty to me. He's a disgrace.

This doesn't have anything to do with the statement. I don't know anything about it.

Really? You don't know anything about that? Well it happened. The whole world saw it and it can't be explained away. Search Trump Putin Helsinki.

It's relevant because our interaction began when I mused about Trump supporters and intellectual honesty. My point with that post was supposed to be that considering all that's happened since 2015, I don't know how anyone intellectually honest can still support him. I only mentioned the bleach, my bad.
That people have to make excuses and explanations for things like the disinfectant comments, trying to make them seem sensible, is going down the road of intellectual dishonesty. It's called apologetics.
This is not personal for me. I don't dislike you, or anyone solely because they support Trump. Anyone can do apologetics and not even realize it. I'm aware of it and consciously try not to fall into that behavior myself.

I know that it happened; wasn't trying to deny it happened. I was just saying I don't know anything about it, the particulars, the whats and whys and so I'm not going to defend or condemn. I may not know everything about everything I talk about, but if I don't know anything I'm not going to jump in completely blind. I'm sure someone will come along and question whether I know anything about anything I say, but that's probably because they mistake disagreement for ignorance.

I can still support him because I think he's done a good job. Not a perfect job, but good enough that I'll still vote for him come November. Especially given his most likely opponent.

It's not going down the road of dishonesty to explain what you feel needs explaining. I only give my opinion here. I never claimed to have all the answers, and I know enough to know I may be wrong.

I'm not sure any of this would rise to the level of apologetics. That would imply a systematic or formal discourse in defense of...this is anything but systematic or formal on my end. Although someone keeps asking for citations. The whole conversation started with me saying something to the affect of Pres. Trump didn't institute a national lockdown. I thought that was a good thing. It meandered through lockdown for a while before morphing into the healthcare system being overwhelmed, then turning into bleach injecting and recently seems to be getting back to a national lockdown. I am nothing if not informal and unsystematic...chaotic even, at times.

If it makes you feel any better, and by you I mean everyone here who thinks I bring the property value down with my irrational Trump support and general ignorance; and the one who thinks I'm nothing but a used up chew toy, I probably won't be here for too long. My normal SOP is when I hear or read something that makes me wonder what the other side thinks, I come here. I discuss, ask questions, answer any if I can, and try to get a good idea of what the other side thinks. I then go back to real life with a better understanding of the other side...sometimes a better understanding. Sometimes scratching my head thinking "What the actual hell?"
Plus I'm about to move, and that's going to take up most of my time for a few weeks.

noncredo wrote:If it makes you feel any better, and by you I mean everyone here who thinks I bring the property value down with my irrational Trump support and general ignorance; and the one who thinks I'm nothing but a used up chew toy, I probably won't be here for too long. My normal SOP is when I hear or read something that makes me wonder what the other side thinks, I come here. I discuss, ask questions, answer any if I can, and try to get a good idea of what the other side thinks. I then go back to real life with a better understanding of the other side...sometimes a better understanding. Sometimes scratching my head thinking "What the actual hell?"

Oh, boo-fucking-hoo.

I'll tell you what I think. I think anyone who supports a president who puts a white supremacist in charge of immigration policy is a fucking cunt. I also think that anyone who supports a president who thinks windmills cause cancer is a fucking moron.

Now go ahead and bitch more about incivility.

While this really should go into the extant thread specifically about Trump I'd ask what good has he done sufficient to earn someone's vote when weighted against all the terrible things he's said, done and screwed up.

Is it ok that he is so clearly subservient to Putin?

Is it ok that he tried to extort a political favour from an embattled European state?

Is it ok that he's sought to redirect funds from military projects such as schools towards an unwarranted, wasteful and likely ineffective southern border wall?

Also regarding said border is it ok that hundreds perhaps thousands of children were separated from their parents, including asylum seekers?

Is it ok that he spectacularly failed Puerto Rico's hurricane recovery including having public spats with a mayor?

These are just a few off the top of my head.

noncredo wrote:I know that it [Trump siding with Putin, and against US intelligence agencies, on Russian election interference] happened; wasn't trying to deny it happened. I was just saying I don't know anything about it, the particulars, the whats and whys and so I'm not going to defend or condemn.

There's a pretty strong pattern here of you being unaware of the particulars of incidents where Trump looks incompetent, ignorant, or contemptuous of the constitution or his oath of office. Either you're filtering that stuff out yourself, or you're getting your news from outlets that filter that out for you. Either way, you're so consistently unaware of Trump's failings that you're not really able to claim to make any sort of generalisation that requires a broad awareness of Trump's performance.

Such as...

noncredo wrote:I can still support him because I think he's done a good job. Not a perfect job, but good enough that I'll still vote for him come November. Especially given his most likely opponent.

You've avoided throughout this discussion actually saying what you think he's done that would count as "a good job", despite several direct requests to elaborate. Care to do so now?

noncredo wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

noncredo wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
You're really digging as deep as you can, aren't you?


Except:
1. Trump said this directly following a report on the effectiveness of disinfectants, in particular bleach on COVID 19.
2. When directly asked if he did want to inject bleach, he did not deny the statement, but tried to pass it off as sarcasm. Unsuccessfully.

Do you think "something like that" is the same as "that"?

What part of:

When directly asked if he did want to inject bleach, he did not deny the statement, but tried to pass it off as sarcasm. Unsuccessfully.

Do you not understand?
But do go on. You might reach China yet.

The part where not denying he wants to inject bleach means he wants to inject bleach. What part of "something like that" doesn't mean "that" do you not understand?

This is truly pathetic.
If I ask you, did you say X and you respond with, 'I was just talking sarcastically', you're confirming you said X.

noncredo wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

noncredo wrote:

theropod_V_2.0 wrote:He should have went golfing and left fixing a pandemic to people that know how, held no press conferences and not ran for re-election on the covid19 platform. The Pence “yes man” daily show is straight outta some dystopian dark comedy. Fuck Turnip, and the Jedi mind tricks. There is no rational reason to support the wannabe tyrant.

RS

Wannabe tyrant? He has a crisis that would have given him an excuse to take near complete control of the entire country.

Except he's already asserted he has that power, several times, before the crisis. So in his mind, he probably already is in that position.

noncredo wrote: Instead he takes a more federalist approach and leaves it to the states.

Bullshit:

LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd Amendment. It is under siege!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 17, 2020

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1251169987110330372?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

noncredo wrote: Not really the actions of a wannabe tyrant.

Again, he's repeatedly asserted in the past that the constitution give him the power to do whatever he wants.

Bullshit? How so? He didn't take control of the country despite having a great excuse. He did leave it to the states? Not bullshit.

You can't read his mind, so telling me what position you think he thinks he's in...kind of sounds like "Orange man bad" to me.

Defending the constitution isn't the act of a tyrant, it's part of his oath of office.

Your selective understanding game is really getting old fast.
If you're calling on state citizens to rebel against their local government, you're not leaving things up to the state noncredo.
Your increasing feats of mental gymnastics notwithstanding.

With the UK plans to get children back to schools, without proving it's safe to do so, I think it's going to be down to parents, teacher's unions and individual head teachers to actually stop it from happening. This post from facebook apparently details the current conflict between the government's position an that of the national education union.

For parents who have a decision to make about sending children back to school on 1st June, I've just been in an NEU national union meeting and want to share some info to help you make a more informed decision:

The UK government keep justifying their decision to reopen schools by saying they are mirroring Denmark who have successfully reopened schools, and directed the unions to find out how it has been achieved safely, so we did and this is what we found:

• Denmark reopened schools when it had significantly lower infection and death rates.
Denmark 95 deaths per 1 million of the population
UK 513 deaths per 1 million of the population

• Social distancing in Denmark schools was strictly 2 metres. Department for Education guidance in the UK doesnt actually insist on social distancing, it just says 'maintain social distancing where possible'.

• In Denmark students are in groups of 5 outside and groups of 3 in classrooms. Department for Education guidance in the UK suggests splitting classes in half, meaning potentially 15 students together in a group.

• The government in Denmark gave schools extra money to buy more sinks and cleaning products to maintain the highest levels of hygiene. UK government has given schools no extra funding to improve hygiene.

• Unlike the UK, Denmark didn't leave individual headteachers to decide if their schools were safe to reopen, instead local authority health and safety experts had to approve and sign off individual schools plans to reopen before they could allow students back in.

With 34,796 deaths the UK should not be mirroring Denmark who have only suffered a total of 548 deaths. The closest comparisons we have in Europe are Spain and Italy, where schools are remaining closed until September.

you've got it spot on with that, squire

there are no guarantees in any dfe guidance of the 2m rule and that, basically, this should be accepted as 'risk' - the same reason they give for not giving out ppe as a matter of course...

if i were to return to work, i can argue that it must be 2m but only because fallible is in the extremely vulnerable shielded group, not out of any concern for myself or others (even though statistically i'm in a shit position due to type 2) - if they cannot guarantee that then i can refuse to enter the building - this is both dfe & union guidance

again, the govt are comparing us to the wrong countries - they do it in terms of achievement and now they're doing it in terms of recovery and reopening - whoever wrote that post mentions to two countries i've mentioned all along - spain & italy

there's no feasible reason for it, apart from trying to get more people back to work as not home schooling anymore...a capitalist decision, i suppose

teachers? we all think the whole profession & schools are being thrown under a very large bus...

oh, and if anything is touted as neu guidance - it's also joint union guidance with acsl & naht, supported by unison

but i think you're right - it's going to be 'people power' that sorts this one out...

The_Piper wrote:Oh right, my bad, he didn't say bleach he said disinfectant, in the same sentence where he said "like a cleaning". He's not talking about antibiotics, which dont work on viruses. He already said that previously, multiple times. No, he's talking about disinfectants, like bleach, ammonia, alcohol, peroxide. They don't inject those things into a person for a cleaning.

Bleach is so last week.

I just noticed that the blurry girl in red could be a twin of the one by his side.

The_Piper wrote:
I just noticed that the blurry girl in red could be a twin of the one by his side.

It could even be the same woman.

England beaches gridlock caused by cars 'from all over country'

Beaches across England have been seeing high numbers of visitors apparently defying coronavirus concerns.

Cars from "all over the country" were in gridlock in Devon, police said.

In Cornwall, Perranporth beach had hundreds of people on it, while the warm weather also brought people out to Southend seafront in Essex.

In Merseyside, people visited Sefton's beaches despite pleas to stay away, and there was a reported 40-minute queue for a toilet in Skegness.

Similar in Scotland, with police moving on people from Portobello beach
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-52747041

Thanks Boris. You fuck.

noncredo wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

noncredo wrote:Oh, and Macdoc will come in and make a snarky comment about how I can't be rational since I'm a rightwingding who supports President Trump.

It is fair to say that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themself into. Such is the case with Trump supporters.

That assumes I didn't reason myself into the position.

I can see no rational way that you could other than “not Hillary,” which given the choice, isn’t a rational position either.

ronmcd wrote:

Similar in Scotland, with police moving on people from Portobello beach
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-52747041

Thanks Boris. You fuck.

And the hilarious articles of incredulous fuckwits who drove to the beach and were shocked to see 'all these other people there.'

Yes, as ever, "other" people are the problem.

Costa Del Boy, keeping the funeral pyres lit later this summer.

ronmcd wrote:England beaches gridlock caused by cars 'from all over country'

Beaches across England have been seeing high numbers of visitors apparently defying coronavirus concerns.

Cars from "all over the country" were in gridlock in Devon, police said.

In Cornwall, Perranporth beach had hundreds of people on it, while the warm weather also brought people out to Southend seafront in Essex.

In Merseyside, people visited Sefton's beaches despite pleas to stay away, and there was a reported 40-minute queue for a toilet in Skegness.

Similar in Scotland, with police moving on people from Portobello beach
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-52747041

Thanks Boris. You fuck.

Isn't there just one beach in Britain?

newolder wrote:Costa Del Boy, keeping the funeral pyres lit later this summer.

I can't help but look at that and wonder what percentage of those people voted for Brexit?