Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2621  Postby Skinny Puppy » Jul 29, 2012 9:52 pm

Well I believe an awful lot of us were pretty upset when RDF imploded. Richard handled the entire affair rather poorly (to put it mildly), but time marches on.

I prefer this site and wouldn’t want the old RDF back. I hold no animosity towards Richard (I did at the time), he made a severe boo-boo, but he’s only human. He’s done so much for free thought, atheism etc. that a slip-up here or there isn’t a major event... he’s still a great man.

As far as his new site goes... I’ve gone there a few times, but the feeling of camaraderie is gone and it seems like a very sterile atmosphere. It’s not my cup of tea, but many posters there are happy campers, so I wish Richard the best with his forum. :cheers:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2622  Postby AlohaChris » Jul 29, 2012 9:52 pm

I see this phenomenon all the time in medicine. Doctors are really smart & well educated. Some of them think this will translate to other fields where they're not experts. They proceed to take their large amounts of disposable income to start businesses, which ultimately fail or get robbed blind by the secretary, office manager or accountant they hired because they couldn't be bothered with the details of actually running it.

Dawkins is a smart guy with lots of money who seems to have ignored the details.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2623  Postby UndercoverElephant » Jul 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Imagination Theory wrote: I also talked to Dawkins about it and I really think he didn't know everything that was going on


He didn't know anything that was going on.


and that Josh and others told him some untruths


I have no idea about that.


What's wrong with a being a "rabid one"? I actually don't even know what that is either.


Long story... :)
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2624  Postby Strontium Dog » Jul 29, 2012 11:53 pm

Fallible wrote:That's the point for me though - Dawkins didn't know what was going on, received his 'information' from only one source, and used that as the sole basis from which to launch a scathing and untruthful attack on the membership and volunteer staff.


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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2625  Postby Made of Stars » Jul 30, 2012 12:49 am

Bang on.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2626  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jul 30, 2012 1:04 am

Fallible wrote:That's the point for me though - Dawkins didn't know what was going on, received his 'information' from only one source, and used that as the sole basis from which to launch a scathing and untruthful attack on the membership and volunteer staff.

+1000! :thumbup: :thumbup:
One would hope that in a life of science, some leakage of its some of the principles of hypothesis testing, a consideration of all the available evidence [without fear or favour] would leak into other areas of our lives. But apparently, this does not always happen in some cases. Basing his opinion only on what Josh told him, is I suppose and understandable and human thing. But it does not make it right. PZ Myers did much the same thing when I voiced such matters on his website-he sided with Dawkins without question, and banned me.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2627  Postby UndercoverElephant » Jul 30, 2012 11:07 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Fallible wrote:That's the point for me though - Dawkins didn't know what was going on, received his 'information' from only one source, and used that as the sole basis from which to launch a scathing and untruthful attack on the membership and volunteer staff.

+1000! :thumbup: :thumbup:
One would hope that in a life of science, some leakage of its some of the principles of hypothesis testing, a consideration of all the available evidence [without fear or favour] would leak into other areas of our lives. But apparently, this does not always happen in some cases. Basing his opinion only on what Josh told him, is I suppose and understandable and human thing. But it does not make it right. PZ Myers did much the same thing when I voiced such matters on his website-he sided with Dawkins without question, and banned me.


I don't know what Josh told him. I do think it was very naive of him to start a bulletin board, take no part or notice in its running whatsoever and expect there to be no problems. He must be perfectly well aware that the subject he's most well known for (his strident, outspoken atheism and rejection of all religion) was highly controversial. Add that together with the bulletin board format and you have a recipe for something explosive. Anyone who knows anything about life on bulletin boards could have told him that, so I have to assume that not only did Dawkins have no idea what was going on on his own website, but he had very little idea what was going on on the internet in general.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2628  Postby Fallible » Jul 30, 2012 11:11 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
Fallible wrote:That's the point for me though - Dawkins didn't know what was going on, received his 'information' from only one source, and used that as the sole basis from which to launch a scathing and untruthful attack on the membership and volunteer staff.


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Nicely done, sir.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2629  Postby orpheus » Jul 30, 2012 2:39 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:Well I believe an awful lot of us were pretty upset when RDF imploded. Richard handled the entire affair rather poorly (to put it mildly), but time marches on.

I prefer this site and wouldn’t want the old RDF back. I hold no animosity towards Richard (I did at the time), he made a severe boo-boo, but he’s only human. He’s done so much for free thought, atheism etc. that a slip-up here or there isn’t a major event... he’s still a great man.

As far as his new site goes... I’ve gone there a few times, but the feeling of camaraderie is gone and it seems like a very sterile atmosphere. It’s not my cup of tea, but many posters there are happy campers, so I wish Richard the best with his forum. :cheers:


+1
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2630  Postby Evolving » Jul 30, 2012 2:42 pm

It was a great pity that the old forum was destroyed, but I think this one is a more mature place than the old one, with an entire sub-forum dedicated to Discussions about Richard Dawkins!
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen [strict moderation]

#2631  Postby lordpasternack » Dec 21, 2012 1:27 am

Made of Stars wrote: You must be very excited about these developments. :yawn:

PS. Andrew Chalkley is a lying wanker.


Hi. I just need to stick my oar in at this juncture and say that Andrew Chalkley is not a lying wanker. I've been in intermittent correspondence with him for about a year now, via phone, text and email - and he has told me a number of things about RDFRS, which I've fact-checked and cross-referenced conscientiously where possible - and I've not yet found any signs of dishonesty or insincerity. I also sincerely don't believe that monkeyhole is Chalkers.

Andrew was out of order during Forumgate, which he has since admitted to several times in private - and I seem to remember him making some sort of apology publicly on Rationalia (which I'm currently searching for, over there).

During Forumgate, he was a professionally inexperienced ex-Mormon and newly converted Dawkins acolyte, with zero familiarity of the forum, in a culture of incompetent and unaccountable management. When the discontent flared up, Chalkers reacted tribalistically, and indeed, also in line with some of what those higher in the chain were telling him to do. There were a fair handful of people within RDFRS who acted like wankers during that debacle - and some of them may be forgiven and absolved now. I'd count Chalkers in that number.

Chalkers became disillusioned with RDFRS, in the wake of the lawsuit being announced against Timonen - and resigned in November 2010: XXXXXXXXXX

Note in particular his broad complaint to Richard about "ad-hoc commands" and "persistent rewriting of history".

And then read this - which Andrew says is an email sent to Josh Timonen by the current Executive Director of RDFRS, and forwarded by her to Andrew - to "bring him in on the discussion" - at the time of the forum closure: XXXXXXXXXX

And I'll only add in light of the above, that I recently had some correspondence with the current Executive Director of RDFRS via email - which I fact-checked and cross-referenced conscientiously - and found multiple glaring signs of calculated dishonesty and insincerity... :coffee:


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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2632  Postby lordpasternack » Dec 21, 2012 2:24 am

OlivierK wrote:
campermon wrote:Can anyone sum up what happened with the court case?

:cheers:

Given that the whole thing was arguing about who was entitled to what when both parties didn't bother to communicate any sort of agreement about what payment would be given for what work, Dawkins dropped it on the grounds that not having any evidence at all for what he claimed was somewhat of a problem for the court.

Also, Dawkins seems to have used the same questionable judgement that he used to hire Timonen to hire his lawyers, who seemed about as good at running the case as Timonen was at running websites. Eventually the shambles got put out of its misery, with Dawkins dropping it after after the judge got narky at Dawkins' lawyers for being unable to follow due process.


My emphasis.

Actually, Dawkins most definitely did none of those things.

See the Motion for Terminating Sanctions - p13, lines 5-9:

To-date, Plaintiff Dawkins has failed to produce a single communication to the defendants... Rather, Robin Elizabeth Cornwell [sic], on behalf of RDFRS, has produced in very large part only those documents she apparently believes are supportive of the Plaintiffs' contentions...


My bolding.

And that was in July 2011. At least 7 months into the case. And Dawkins as an individual was supposed to be filing suit against Timonen personally, remember...

And in case you needed to know the reasoning behind this particular delegation - you can view this archived snapshot of the RDFRS Staff page and see:

Dr R. Elisabeth ‘Liz’ Cornwell, PhD, has been taken on as the first Executive Director of the US branch of RDFRS. She has already made many contributions to RDFRS behind the scenes, including... setting up our system of accountancy, auditing and legal advice. She was equipped to do this during her years as a businesswoman, working in marketing and sales in the semiconductor industry in California.


My emphasis.

Also note that that capture was taken on 22 May 2011 - and that the claims about her auditing, accounting and legal expertise were removed by the time of the capture taken almost exactly a month later. The comment about her business experience was also shunted further down in the bio, successfully divorced of its original context - and an outright lie about her having filmed lecture events was inserted, for good measure.

And it may not have been RDFRS's lawyers who were failing to follow due process. It may have been one of the lawyers' clients. Ahem.

We're all very excited about the hinted-at new court case. :yawn:


Anyone remotely interested can find the case by running a search for "Josh Timonen", on this site - which costs a few dollars.

Alternatively - the text of the case summary can be found here. It's very dry.

But yes - Josh has been suing RDFRS, and specific named individuals within RDFRS.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2633  Postby lordpasternack » Dec 28, 2012 3:29 pm

I'll also just leave this here, for now... An excerpt from the Declaration of Charles Coate (paragraph 9) - with my added emphasis:

Image

Josh Timonen and co, quoted from emails from both Richard Dawkins and Robin Elisabeth Cornwell, sent in 2007 - which reportedly directly contradict the allegations made by RDFRS against Timonen - regarding their agreement over the running of the RDFRS store, and their explicit knowledge of how Timonen would be running it.

And instead of throwing her arms up and crying about how these emails must not be genuine - Cornwell instead insists that the emails have been "taken out of context" - but provides no further evidence as to what the true context might have been. She provides zero evidence to establish RDFRS's case against Timonen, and then insists that evidence that seems to flatly contradict her own (ever-changing) testimony has been "taken out of context".

I have yet to see these emails for myself. I'm told that they're part of the Exhibits in Timonen's lawsuit against RDFRS et al - along with other emails that are rather incriminating against Dawkins and Cornwell. I look forward to reading them and trying to puzzle out ways in which they could be dishonestly taken out of context.

I think the plot does thicken, though...
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2634  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Dec 29, 2012 9:34 am

@[b] Lordpasternack:[/b]
With the greatest respect you cannot have had first hand knowledge of how Andrew Chalkley and Josh Timonen acted or what they said to the RDF staff during the episode in question, but myself, MOS, Jan and many others know exactly what was said. The behaviour of both persons was dissmissive, condescending and often rude, especially after polite comments were made about both the management of the forum, and their people skills. In short, we were treated like shit by people who didn't know what the fuck they were doing. but kept up an arrogant pretence that they did for a very long time. No doubt their arrogance was fueled at least in part by RD's naivity. :doh:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2635  Postby lordpasternack » Dec 29, 2012 1:50 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:@[b][color=#CC0000][b] Lordpasternack:[/b][/b][/color]
With the greatest respect you cannot have had first hand knowledge of how Andrew Chalkley and Josh Timonen acted or what they said to the RDF staff during the episode in question, but myself, MOS, Jan and many others know exactly what was said. The behaviour of both persons was dissmissive, condescending and often rude, especially after polite comments were made about both the management of the forum, and their people skills. In short, we were treated like shit by people who didn't know what the fuck they were doing. but kept up an arrogant pretence that they did for a very long time. No doubt their arrogance was fueled at least in part by RD's naivity. :doh:


I don't know exactly what was said - but I have already stated that Andrew was out of order, and that he has admitted as much to me personally. I also shared an email written by the current Executive Director to Josh and Andrew - which showed that they were not acting alone, without encouragement from those up the chain in RDFRS. Though, of course, you can no longer see that, because it seems that it flouts the rules of this forum to share private correspondence without specific consent.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2636  Postby stijndeloose » Dec 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Apparently. Not that it's really clear which rules in flouts, though. The modnote doesn't help clarify that either. :dunno:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2637  Postby THWOTH » Jan 01, 2013 2:04 am

stijndeloose wrote:Apparently. Not that it's really clear which rules in flouts, though. The modnote doesn't help clarify that either. :dunno:


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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2638  Postby THWOTH » Jan 01, 2013 10:11 am

Happy New Year EC. :D
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2639  Postby econ41 » Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

THWOTH wrote:Happy New Year EC. :D

Thank you. Did I beat you into 2013 by 11 hours? I was getting a bit of deja vu RDNet 2007-8-9 looking at the members names posting in this thread. Pre either of the two "big events". We could hold a reunion.

I've not seen the user name "hermit" tho the avatar is familiar.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#2640  Postby Made of Stars » Jan 01, 2013 12:46 pm

Wotcher, econ41. :cheers:
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