Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#81  Postby David M » Oct 23, 2010 6:54 pm

kiore wrote:Really although I don't doubt these things happen I wouldn't have thought a certain person was competent enough to actually get away with this.. although it seems he hasn't. Guess there will need to be a revision of the dedication in the next edition of the Greatest Show On Earth.. :popcorn:


He wasn't competent enough to get away with it, it detailed his embezzlement in the accounts.

I hope Josh get hammered into penury by the settlement.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#82  Postby mcgruff » Oct 23, 2010 6:56 pm

Shadenfreude is not very attractive. If true, Dawkins and his charity have been ripped off and betrayed. I find this shocking, not funny.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#83  Postby Mac_Guffin » Oct 23, 2010 6:57 pm

This doesn't surprise me.
Maybe Dawkins will agree with one of our poster's assessment of Josh now - that he's a supperating rat's rectum. :coffee:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#84  Postby LIFE » Oct 23, 2010 6:57 pm

Wiðercora wrote:How can charities afford to fork out that much money?


I've heard Dawkins say that the biggest chunk of $$$ was his own donations, so this would -presuming this is true- at least in principle explain such large sums.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#85  Postby Tortured_Genius » Oct 23, 2010 6:57 pm

jerome wrote:But I'm glad our loathing for certain people may have been justified.

j x


Indeed. Whilst Josh came across as an arrogant self centered brat not for one moment did I, or I suspect many, think the guy was an actual criminal who'd ripped off hundreds of thousands of dollars (allegedly ofc - it's still got to go to court!).
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#86  Postby BrandySpears » Oct 23, 2010 6:59 pm

PZ so didn't want to get sucked into that whiny atheist drama:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... sucked.php

"There has been a lot of vilification of Josh Timonen going on, which does not win my sympathy. Josh is a good guy, and he's neck-deep in work for the RDF — not just the richarddawkins.net site, and not just the forum, which only represents about a quarter of the daily visits to the site overall. Yet the forum represents most of the drama and trouble in maintaining the whole business. If it's not reflecting Dawkins' vision, and if it's a headache to maintain, you have to appreciate why they would think revising it would be a smart idea."
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#87  Postby j.mills » Oct 23, 2010 7:01 pm

Thommo wrote:He was paying him a salary for maintaining the website, making videos and running various activities on behalf of the foundation.

In fairness, I thought the videos were nicely produced, and I liked the plinkety music. The guy's not totally incompetent, but didn't achieve enough in my book to justify that kinda salary, and as we saw with the Debacle, was managerially worse than useless. That's before we get into that whole, ya know, criminal embezzlement thing... :grin:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#88  Postby David M » Oct 23, 2010 7:02 pm

Thommo wrote:He was paying him a salary for maintaining the website, making videos and running various activities on behalf of the foundation. Over 4-ish years a salary of $70k is certainly generous (especially given his apparent ineptitude in several areas), but I don't see how that makes it "not much of a charity". I have no doubt that medicines sans frontieres, the red cross, oxfam etc. all pay millions of US$ in salaries a year.


And it does depend whether that $287,000 was actually all salary for the suppurating rat's rectum, the way the article is worded it could also include the funding for the costs involved in hosting the website and shop.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#89  Postby j.mills » Oct 23, 2010 7:03 pm

PZ, in Brandy's quote, has a point. After all, if RDF still had the forum, just think what kinds of things people would be saying on it now! :grin:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#90  Postby quill » Oct 23, 2010 7:03 pm

Thommo wrote:
quill wrote:
Thommo wrote:Sad if he's guilty, stealing from a charity is fucking low.

I opened the thread expecting this to be a joke. :shifty:


It's hardly much of a charity in the first place if Dawkins was already freely giving him $280k in foundation money just to sell some shitty buttons and t-shirts. What a joke.


He was paying him a salary for maintaining the website, making videos and running various activities on behalf of the foundation. Over 4-ish years a salary of $70k is certainly generous (especially given his apparent ineptitude in several areas), but I don't see how that makes it "not much of a charity".


It was three years, and if the $280k was for all three years, then that's still a more than generous $90,000/year, almost twice the median household income in the United States, for doing something that any competent web designer can do in his sleep. An online store is not exactly rocket science. He probably didn't even write the code himself. It's quite outrageous to think that our donations were going to pay excessive compensations like that.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#91  Postby Admiral Valdemar » Oct 23, 2010 7:03 pm

quill wrote:I'm out of the loop. Isn't Josh the idiot who fucked up RD.net?


Why yes, yes he is.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#92  Postby twistor59 » Oct 23, 2010 7:04 pm

My gob is well and truly smacked.

Those are STAGGERING amounts of money.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#93  Postby Strontium Dog » Oct 23, 2010 7:07 pm

Mac_Guffin wrote:This doesn't surprise me.


Me either. We already knew Timonen was subhuman scum. So far as I'm concerned, embezzlement ranks low on his list of crimes. I hope the cunt ends up in jail.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#94  Postby mcgruff » Oct 23, 2010 7:08 pm

quill wrote:It's hardly much of a charity in the first place if Dawkins was already freely giving him $280k in foundation money just to sell some shitty buttons and t-shirts. What a joke.

I think that translates as $80k annually which doesn't sound excessive if he had a lot of work to do including developing new software. Questioning his age and experience in the lawsuit makes me rather uncomfortable. If there were genuine questions about his age and experience, why did they appoint him? If Josh can claim to have generated sales well in excess of his salary, he obviously has the requisite skills and experience.

Don't forget the allegations are shocking but they are just allegations. We haven't heard JT's defence.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#95  Postby jerome » Oct 23, 2010 7:10 pm

twistor59 wrote:My gob is well and truly smacked.

Those are STAGGERING amounts of money.



Wnat to set up a radical sceptics group dedicated to stopping poltergeist rap nonsense? We can sell memberships! Or (from my blog ) http://jerome23.wordpress.com/2009/07/0 ... -cj23-com/ (i'm cj.23 on the JREF)

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#96  Postby j.mills » Oct 23, 2010 7:11 pm

mcgruff wrote:If Josh can claim to have generated sales well in excess of his salary, he obviously has the requisite skills and experience.

Apparently, he claimed to have generated sales well below his salary.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#97  Postby quill » Oct 23, 2010 7:11 pm

No, I'm sorry, it's outrageous. No punk kid fresh out of college deserves to be making twice what most FAMILIES make for setting up and running an online store to sell t-shirts for a supposed charity. Anyone can do that on a budget of $50, FFS. What sold the t-shirts was Richard Dawkins' name, not some genius web design.

And if Dawkins was paying him that excessively, I can only imagine what he's been paying everyone else in the organization.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#98  Postby BrandySpears » Oct 23, 2010 7:13 pm

Tomorrow's edition of The Onion:
World's Most Famous Skeptic Not Skeptical Enough - Taken To The Cleaners!
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#99  Postby jerome » Oct 23, 2010 7:14 pm

mcgruff wrote:
quill wrote:It's hardly much of a charity in the first place if Dawkins was already freely giving him $280k in foundation money just to sell some shitty buttons and t-shirts. What a joke.

I think that translates as $80k annually which doesn't sound excessive if he had a lot of work to do including developing new software. Questioning his age and experience in the lawsuit makes me rather uncomfortable. If there were genuine questions about his age and experience, why did they appoint him? If Josh can claim to have generated sales well in excess of his salary, he obviously has the requisite skills and experience.

Don't forget the allegations are shocking but they are just allegations. We haven't heard JT's defence.



Absolutely and well said. The fact JT handed over the books detailing the expenses suggests he may well have felt all was above board, and raises questions about oversight and the trustees. But all is speculation, and we can't really comment till the case is over I guess.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#100  Postby Thommo » Oct 23, 2010 7:15 pm

quill wrote:It was three years, and if the $280k was for all three years, then that's still a more than generous $90,000/year, almost twice the median household income in the United States, for doing something that any competent web designer can do in his sleep. An online store is not exactly rocket science. He probably didn't even write the code himself. It's quite outrageous to think that our donations were going to pay excessive compensations like that.


I think charities are obliged to make their accounts available to the public.

Perhaps if it worries you, you can look at the accounts and find out how much of it was salary and compare that salary with that of other web designers who run a large part of a charitable foundation and do production and editing work for a celebrity (or people in comparable jobs) and tell us if this is really that outrageous? That seems more appropriate to me than jumping to a conclusion.

If the figures in the lawsuit are accurate the sales from the website cover the salary many times over, which would rather indicate that it wasn't money out of the pocket of donors anyway.

This thread is about a law suit, it's not a hobby horse for touting our own favourite economic views.
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