Democrat Watch

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1001  Postby aban57 » Feb 20, 2020 1:41 pm

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1002  Postby willhud9 » Feb 20, 2020 1:44 pm

If employers don’t have to invest in healthcare it allows them to pay their employees more. If employees don’t have to pay for healthcare it allows them to spend money back into the economy on commercial goods.

If people are healthier, they are more productive. If people can afford to go to the doctor and catch something earlier they save their business the costs of call outs due to sickness or disability.

It’s almost as if poor healthcare infrastructure negatively affects business.

But considering it’s common in many states for employers to simply release sick employees for calling out too much. :dunno:
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1003  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 20, 2020 11:24 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:
WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
willhud9 wrote:I'm not buying into the right wing argument, but I definitely do know progressives turn on their own quicker than anything. There is no strength of unity in the progressive movement.

See, I do agree that there is a problem of this kind. I just don't think it's so much what's happening with Buttigieg (and DeGeneres), because I don't think Buttigieg is a progressive on policy. I expect them to go after him.

I see it more, for instance, in leftists going after Elizabeth Warren while also going soft on Yang and Gabbard. Strategically, that just looks foolish to me. I suspect Yang and Gabbard are actually pulling from the base of the progressive darling (Sanders) and yet neither of them are in a position to go anywhere. Warren, on the other hand, seems to be drawing as much from centrists or establishment as she is from progressives. And she's not dropping out with her numbers. Why, if you support Sanders, would you not diplomatically push for Yang and Gabbard to drop out and throw their support behind Sanders? And then work with Warren? Instead, I keep seeing Sanders supporters attacking Warren in ways that will make drawing her supporters much harder and actually propping up Yang and, especially, Gabbard.

Warren is almost-progressive. The problem is that she cannot be trusted to actually fight for the progressive policies she claims to support. She has basically backed off of M4A, for example. Voting for Trump's military spending bills is not the most progressive thing in the world either. She is also trying to have her cake and eat it to - pretending to be a true progressive, while working with the neoliberals. I think she said it best herself when she admitted - "I'm just a player in this game."

She is not a true progressive who will actually fight for progressive issues. She is a calculating politician.

Didn't she also say that she might pick Kamala Harris as VP?

Buttigieg is definitely not a progressive.

See, I hear the talk about Warren's vote on the military budget and it doesn't convince me. It would've passed anyway and from what I've read she got multiple provisions put on it in exchange for her vote. And Sanders also voted for multiple military budgets before running. Some of these standards set for Warren by Sanders supporters, and progressives generally, are ones that Sanders doesn't clear either.

I think progressives just buy into Bernie's PR.

Well now that a bit of time has passed, and Warren first pulled away from M4A, then stabbed Bernie in the back repeatedly, and now has started parroting anti-M4A talking points, I guess it's safe to say that I was right.

And no, Bernie is not just PR. He has been consistent for several decades.

Spinozasgalt wrote:I actually agree with Will that some of these Sanders supporters are like this. Every campaign has them but with Sanders they organise and swarm.

Really? How to they "organise and swarm" exactly?

But it does seem to be an online thing, especially on Twitter - I haven't seen anything like that toxicity offline. It's hard to get clear numbers for something like this though. I think where it comes back to Sanders himself is that it's his campaign staff, people he's chosen, who give such people firepower and even engage in the toxic stuff themselves. I've seen Briahna Joy Gray target tiny Twitter accounts because they voiced dissenting opinions on Sanders and send followers after them. David Sirota is a jerk. Nina Turner has her moments. And they've had a couple of notable hires that weren't vetted and they had to get rid of quickly.

When has Joy Gray targeted tiny Twitter accounts? How did she target them? How did she "send followers after them"?

Why is Sirota a jerk?

What about Turner? What moments?

What hires are you referring to?

Looks like you are reaching again.

I think the thing to be said about Sanders is he hires the wrong people.

No, he does not. You are just using any opportunity you can to smear him. You will even make up stuff to do so.

Here is some actual data, not just stuff made up on the spot:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/do57mNb2ZJbotuB68

Spinozasgalt wrote:I don't think I said it was unique to Sanders supporters. I am suggesting that seeing his supporters do it has a unique look to it and that it comes even from the upper levels of his campaign.

How does it have a unique look to it? How does it come from the upper levels of his campaign? Please be more specific.

It seems that you have fallen victim to confirmation bias, so let me provide you with some actual data again:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/do57mNb2ZJbotuB68

And lastly, Bernie himself almost never attacks anyone. On the other hand, Warren, Biden, Buttigieg, Bloomberg, etc. have all launched extremely dishonest and disgusting smear campaigns to attack Sanders. That sure fires up their troll followers, and they are really active. Sanders supporters are like kittens compared to those people.

Spinozasgalt wrote:I still want Sanders or Warren. I just have my problems with both and I don't want those being papered over. Sanders needs to leave less room for this, Warren needs to do more to make it up to Indigenous Americans. They both need to be clear that they won't have people like Gabbard anywhere near them.

But you are OK with Warren lying about Sanders and smearing him?

Spinozasgalt wrote:Ew.

"We want to bring more people in to the Democratic party and unite them, even people we might disagree with... except when they want to vote for Sanders."

Hypocrisy at its finest.

I mean, people who attacked Sanders for being sort-of-endorsed by Rogan are fine with sexist, racist Bloomberg!
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1004  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 20, 2020 11:38 pm

willhud9 wrote:Part of why I detest Sanders is because his online community is full of the most contrarian pieces of shit to engage in any political discussion. It is hard to tell if they are trolling or just so unwilling to engage in policy discussion civilly. To them its their way or no way at all.

Vox broke it down very clearly:

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/4/10918710/berniebro-bernie-bro

Obviously, not all Bernie Sanders supporters are like this, but the vocal and defining branch of his BernieBros are toxic individuals enough to spoil the image and support for Bernie Sanders. I imagine for any one with their Twitter set to public access such as Hillary Clinton during the 2016 primary, they'd see a lot of sexist and derogatory comments from self-identifying BernieBros that would make you resentful towards that community as well.

That article is crap. First, there are none as toxic and vicious as the anti-Sanders people:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/do57mNb2ZJbotuB68

Secondly, the "Bernie Bro" myth is exactly that - a myth. More women and people of color actually vote for Sanders than do white males, If I remember correctly.

Third, the article ends up by concluding that they have no idea if "Bernie Bros" are worse than anyone else. So basically, the entire article collapses on itself. It is based on nothing. The entire premise has evaporated. And yet you quote it as if it had some kind of good point.

What do you mean by "contrarian" anyway? Because they disagree with the Establishment agenda?

There was also this guy who did some "research" on Twitter. He went through a bunch of claims about "harassed by Bernie Bros", and it turns out that just about all of the harassers were conservatives/Trump-supporters, at least according to their Twitter profile.

willhud9 wrote:Sanders doesn't do that. He embraces his supporters fully.

Source?

Even here if I said I support Buttigieg over Sanders I would be called a moderate or a corporate shill, or selling out my ideals, etc. Instead of, oh you support Buttigieg? I may disagree on his policy, but he is still wanting to move the needle left if not in an abrupt manner as Sanders.

No, Buttigieg will do whatever benefits his career. That's what he cares about. I said this early on during his campaign, and everything he has done has just confirmed that. How many times has he lied about African-American support and endorsements by now? Once is a mistake. Two, three, four... no, there's a clear patterns. Buttigieg is a manufactured candidate who will do and say anything to win, including completely changing his mind on something. Remember how he was all-in for M4A in 2018, even going on CNN or something and saying that M4A was the compromise position?
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1005  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 20, 2020 11:49 pm

Double post.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1006  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 20, 2020 11:55 pm

Hermit wrote:From what (admittedly little) I heard Joe Rogan say, he comes off as a sexist, homophobic, racist, and transphobic character to me. But yeah, I don't think his support will do much, or any, damage to Sanders's appeal.

That is because all you've seen of him is the out of context clips created by those who want to smear anyone who supports Sanders.

Of course, when someone has done hours of podcasts for years and years you can always find something to make them look bad. If you leave out context and the big picture.

It's quite pathetic really. They really don't have anything of substance so they resort to these smears. They're trying to do the same with Cenk Uygyr of The Young Turks who is running in California.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1007  Postby Spinozasgalt » Feb 20, 2020 11:56 pm

WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
See, I do agree that there is a problem of this kind. I just don't think it's so much what's happening with Buttigieg (and DeGeneres), because I don't think Buttigieg is a progressive on policy. I expect them to go after him.

I see it more, for instance, in leftists going after Elizabeth Warren while also going soft on Yang and Gabbard. Strategically, that just looks foolish to me. I suspect Yang and Gabbard are actually pulling from the base of the progressive darling (Sanders) and yet neither of them are in a position to go anywhere. Warren, on the other hand, seems to be drawing as much from centrists or establishment as she is from progressives. And she's not dropping out with her numbers. Why, if you support Sanders, would you not diplomatically push for Yang and Gabbard to drop out and throw their support behind Sanders? And then work with Warren? Instead, I keep seeing Sanders supporters attacking Warren in ways that will make drawing her supporters much harder and actually propping up Yang and, especially, Gabbard.

Warren is almost-progressive. The problem is that she cannot be trusted to actually fight for the progressive policies she claims to support. She has basically backed off of M4A, for example. Voting for Trump's military spending bills is not the most progressive thing in the world either. She is also trying to have her cake and eat it to - pretending to be a true progressive, while working with the neoliberals. I think she said it best herself when she admitted - "I'm just a player in this game."

She is not a true progressive who will actually fight for progressive issues. She is a calculating politician.

Didn't she also say that she might pick Kamala Harris as VP?

Buttigieg is definitely not a progressive.

See, I hear the talk about Warren's vote on the military budget and it doesn't convince me. It would've passed anyway and from what I've read she got multiple provisions put on it in exchange for her vote. And Sanders also voted for multiple military budgets before running. Some of these standards set for Warren by Sanders supporters, and progressives generally, are ones that Sanders doesn't clear either.

I think progressives just buy into Bernie's PR.

Well now that a bit of time has passed, and Warren first pulled away from M4A, then stabbed Bernie in the back repeatedly, and now has started parroting anti-M4A talking points, I guess it's safe to say that I was right.

And no, Bernie is not just PR. He has been consistent for several decades.

Spinozasgalt wrote:I actually agree with Will that some of these Sanders supporters are like this. Every campaign has them but with Sanders they organise and swarm.

Really? How to they "organise and swarm" exactly?

But it does seem to be an online thing, especially on Twitter - I haven't seen anything like that toxicity offline. It's hard to get clear numbers for something like this though. I think where it comes back to Sanders himself is that it's his campaign staff, people he's chosen, who give such people firepower and even engage in the toxic stuff themselves. I've seen Briahna Joy Gray target tiny Twitter accounts because they voiced dissenting opinions on Sanders and send followers after them. David Sirota is a jerk. Nina Turner has her moments. And they've had a couple of notable hires that weren't vetted and they had to get rid of quickly.

When has Joy Gray targeted tiny Twitter accounts? How did she target them? How did she "send followers after them"?

Why is Sirota a jerk?

What about Turner? What moments?

What hires are you referring to?

Looks like you are reaching again.

I think the thing to be said about Sanders is he hires the wrong people.

No, he does not. You are just using any opportunity you can to smear him. You will even make up stuff to do so.

Here is some actual data, not just stuff made up on the spot:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/do57mNb2ZJbotuB68

Spinozasgalt wrote:I don't think I said it was unique to Sanders supporters. I am suggesting that seeing his supporters do it has a unique look to it and that it comes even from the upper levels of his campaign.

How does it have a unique look to it? How does it come from the upper levels of his campaign? Please be more specific.

It seems that you have fallen victim to confirmation bias, so let me provide you with some actual data again:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/do57mNb2ZJbotuB68

And lastly, Bernie himself almost never attacks anyone. On the other hand, Warren, Biden, Buttigieg, Bloomberg, etc. have all launched extremely dishonest and disgusting smear campaigns to attack Sanders. That sure fires up their troll followers, and they are really active. Sanders supporters are like kittens compared to those people.

If you think I'm going to engage with you, you'd be wrong. This is called "sealioning". You're not helping Sanders by doing this. In fact, when I tried to get Will to vote for Sanders previously, you came in here and got in the way. Go away.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1008  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 20, 2020 11:56 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:I don't much care if Rogan tells people he'll vote for Sanders. But the Sanders campaign touting that endorsement on Twitter is disgusting. They didn't even need to do it, they could've just taken whatever support comes from the half-hearted endorsement.

This is a campaign that's embraced purity tests and talked up revolutionary change, but when it comes to open bigotry suddenly "we just can't change things, we need a big tent". It's laughable. And it's a great way to deflate the enthusiasm of people who would campaign for Sanders.

No, what's laughable is that you are making statements about Sanders and Rogan that are clearly false.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1009  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 20, 2020 11:57 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:If you think I'm going to engage with you, you'd be wrong. This is called "sealioning". You're not helping Sanders by doing this. In fact, when I tried to get Will to vote for Sanders previously, you came in here and got in the way. Go away.

You don't see the irony here? You just bashed Sanders for his "mean supporters", and this is how you behave when someone contradicts your claims?

Here's the actual data you chose to ignore:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/do57mNb2ZJbotuB68
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1010  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 21, 2020 12:06 am

felltoearth wrote:Pathetic.

https://twitter.com/CANCEL_SAM/status/1 ... 98305?s=20

Screenshot 2020-02-08 12.50.09.png

Those toxic and mean Sanders supporters!
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1011  Postby Spinozasgalt » Feb 21, 2020 12:12 am

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1012  Postby WayOfTheDodo » Feb 21, 2020 5:03 pm

What is that supposed to mean? "Mission accomplished, trolling successful", right?

As expected, evidence is never presented. Rather, endless accusations and smears with zero substance. Zero actual data showing that Bernie supporters are somehow worse than anyone else.

In fact, the sealioning here is entirely on the part of the Bernie haters, as you constantly smear Bernie and keep posting obvious trolling that is meant to rile up other people.

But as the clear evidence presented shows, Bernie and his supporters are the target of the most aggression and harassment. The same took place in 2016, when the false "mean Bernie Bro" was also being pushed, while actual investigations showed that Bernie supporters were far less aggressive than the others:

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/online- ... ernie-bro/

Now you and your allies are trying to gaslight Bernie supporters, and troll them into becoming angry so that you can point at them and say "see, I told you so".

Also:

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1013  Postby willhud9 » Feb 21, 2020 6:50 pm

:roll:

It’s people like Dodo that make me not want to vote for Bernie.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1014  Postby laklak » Feb 21, 2020 6:53 pm

It's Bernie that makes me not want to vote for Bernie.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1015  Postby Fallible » Feb 21, 2020 7:39 pm

It’s knowing I can’t vote for Bernie that makes me not want to vote for Bernie.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1016  Postby The_Piper » Feb 21, 2020 7:54 pm

Because of Bernie, I'm voting for Bernie.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1017  Postby Spearthrower » Feb 21, 2020 7:54 pm

Boney...
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1018  Postby Seabass » Feb 21, 2020 7:59 pm

willhud9 wrote: :roll:
It’s people like Dodo that make me not want to vote for Bernie.

This is like when Trumpists say they support Trump because of the SJWs or the PC crowd or whatever. Vote for Bernard or don't, but don't blame his supporters for your actions.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1019  Postby Animavore » Feb 21, 2020 9:50 pm

You'll vote for whomever is put before you and like it.

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1020  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Feb 21, 2020 9:55 pm

Not wanting to and not actually voting for the guy are pretty different things. Most of us have pinched our noses and voted for someone before.
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