Democrat Watch

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1781  Postby Spinozasgalt » Apr 05, 2020 1:22 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:But Ball's analysis typically talks up the threat of the Democratic Establishment and downplays the threat of the GOP. Shady as fuck and a nice pipeline from progressivism into Trumpism.


WayOfTheDodo wrote:
She's a real progressive doing insightful political analysis, so yeah, probably of no interest to you and other right-leaning people here.


Now, I wonder which description's the most credible here. :naughty2:

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1782  Postby proudfootz » Apr 05, 2020 1:28 am

Yeah, it was people like* Chuck Todd and Chris Matthews who invoked the Nazis when discussing Sanders and some of his supporters.

* I don't mean to imply these are the only ones, just a couple of examples.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1783  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 05, 2020 3:01 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:But Ball's analysis typically talks up the threat of the Democratic Establishment and downplays the threat of the GOP. Shady as fuck and a nice pipeline from progressivism into Trumpism.


WayOfTheDodo wrote:
She's a real progressive doing insightful political analysis, so yeah, probably of no interest to you and other right-leaning people here.


Now, I wonder which description's the most credible here. :naughty2:

LifeIsWeird.jpg



I do think I am beginning to see exactly what's going on here. It didn't cross my mind before, but that's only fair enough.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1784  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 05, 2020 5:40 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
WayOfTheDodo wrote:He is stil a shitty candidate.


Well, there's an effective message. You could also say Trump is a shitty candidate. Did you? What the fuck would you have the rest of the world do for you? How does your assessment show you're not just another right-wing troll? Talk is cheap. Think about how far you'd get here, supporting Trump instead of just badmouthing Biden. If you understand how Biden is not as bad as Trump (given your choices), how do you think your venom looks to me? How should I care about the difference between you and some right-wing troll?

WayOfTheDodo wrote:
Not preferring Biden? It's not just that I don't prefer him. It's that I actively oppose him. He is everything I despise.


And Trump isn't, in spades? Yes, I see where you're coming from.


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Re: Democrat Watch

#1785  Postby OlivierK » Apr 05, 2020 11:01 am

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1786  Postby Spinozasgalt » Apr 14, 2020 10:45 pm

AP Interview: Sanders says opposing Biden is ‘irresponsible’

Bernie Sanders said Tuesday that it would be “irresponsible” for his loyalists not to support Joe Biden, warning that progressives who “sit on their hands” in the months ahead would simply enable President Donald Trump’s reelection.

And lest there be any question, the 78-year-old Vermont senator confirmed that “it’s probably a very fair assumption” that he would not run for president again. He added, with a laugh: “One can’t predict the future.”

Sanders, who suspended his presidential bid last week, spoke at length about his decision to endorse Biden, his political future and the urgent need to unify the Democratic Party during an interview with The Associated Press. He railed against the Republican president but also offered pointed criticism at his own supporters who have so far resisted his vow to do whatever it takes to help Biden win the presidency.

https://apnews.com/a1bfb62e37fe34e09ff123a58a1329fa
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1787  Postby proudfootz » Apr 15, 2020 12:55 am

It's apparently up to Biden to convince voters to turn out for him.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1788  Postby OlivierK » Apr 15, 2020 4:37 am

If Trump's re-elected, then every single American adult who didn't vote for Biden will share responsibility for that, not just the Trump voters who'd willingly accept it.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1789  Postby arugula2 » Jul 21, 2020 9:50 am

OlivierK wrote:If Trump's re-elected, then every single American adult who didn't vote for Biden will share responsibility for that, not just the Trump voters who'd willingly accept it.

That's not really how it works though, since it's states - and not the electorate - that elects presidents. If I accept the argument that in a Biden-Trump election it's Biden or bust (which I basically do, on grounds of judicial appointees/nominees & climate/energy policy, if nothing else)... then ideally as many voters as possible in all by the risky states should vote progressive or even stay home. So exclude WI, MI, PA, and NC for good measure - in such states, all non-assholes (and even many assholes) need to swallow hard & vote blue. There's a chunky list of states which would still go for Biden or whatever piñata the DNC might replace him with, even if every progressive in those states stuck with their original candidate. Were he to win in November, he should win with the smallest possible vote tally in those particular states, and he'd win with exactly the same margin in the Electoral College. (In fact, it would help highlight the ridiculousness of federal elections in this country.) That tally is the only power the people have, unfortunately, until we do away with the Electoral College & perhaps institute ranked voting for the House & Senate.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1790  Postby arugula2 » Jul 21, 2020 9:51 am

Idk where the hell this thread went, but I have a lot of catching up to do.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1791  Postby arugula2 » Jul 21, 2020 10:09 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:But Ball's analysis typically talks up the threat of the Democratic Establishment and downplays the threat of the GOP. Shady as fuck and a nice pipeline from progressivism into Trumpism.


WayOfTheDodo wrote:
She's a real progressive doing insightful political analysis, so yeah, probably of no interest to you and other right-leaning people here.


Now, I wonder which description's the most credible here. :naughty2:

LifeIsWeird.jpg

The cross-pollination should be desired... this widely accepted notion of networks as cheerleaders for one or another political party, should die an embarrassing death. In that sense, both the business model of Krystal's brand (The Hill) and the fact that she's invited by race-baiting dilettantes to criticize neo-liberals, are better than the status quo of media as corporate shills.

Still, she's a hack. Unfortunately, The Hill's business model isn't strictly driven by serious journalism, and they're perfectly willing to burn that ethos to feed their own (mini)corporate maw. This is only sad because The Hill is still far better political journalism than almost anything else out there. For all I know, she's sincerely trying, and it's just that difficult to break through all the layers of Washington bs.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1792  Postby OlivierK » Jul 21, 2020 10:16 am

Arugula, are you aware of the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact? I think it's got a reasonable chance of getting up if the Dems do well this year, and would be almost a certainty if Trump won the EC but not the popular vote.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1793  Postby arugula2 » Jul 21, 2020 10:24 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:...I noted recently he was even defending that "Chinese virus" language on Twitter...

Saagar's hatchet job with the timeline of the WHO statements in January (implying a conspiracy with China) should be in journalism textbooks about what fake journalism sounds like. It's almost as though the script was handed to him last minute & he hadn't had enough time to rehearse the obfuscation.

They platform a lot of populist personalities, whether they be left wing or of the "I don't identify as right wing, I just happen to line up with right wingers politically but I'm a moderate" types. But Ball's analysis typically talks up the threat of the Democratic Establishment and downplays the threat of the GOP.

Bingo. Except it just as often highlights it, and I've seen her push back on coveted GOP-apologist guests with a kind of fury. So it's not all one-note. She seems to be prioritizing her fights. Anyway, that show is highly scripted, so whatever prioritizing has happened, it was agreed upon beforehand, and she did get some concession for it elsewhere - I'm pretty sure that's the gimmicky formula at play here.

...Shady as fuck and a nice pipeline from progressivism into Trumpism.

In theory - but so is the possibility of contamination of would-be trump voters with progressive arguments. Ie, someone on the GOP side could be saying the same thing about the show, that it's a nice pipeline from conservatism to lilly-livered socially tolerant idealism.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1794  Postby arugula2 » Jul 21, 2020 10:37 am

OlivierK wrote:Arugula, are you aware of the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact? I think it's got a reasonable chance of getting up if the Dems do well this year, and would be almost a certainty if Trump won the EC but not the popular vote.

Setting aside issues of legality... when it was first proposed, I'd assumed it was a fluffy dream, simply because it would require several unlikely states to enter it. When I follow the link to that wiki, I see that South Carolina and Ohio are "pending", making that goal of 270 seem within reach. But... ain't no way either of those states is entering the compact this year (or any year in my lifetime) I'm betting. And sadly, even with best-case scenario, those projections see it falling short anyway... and it's showing Colorado in the affirmative, even though the article itself states that the compact agreement in Colorado has been suspended. :doh:
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1795  Postby Seabass » Jul 21, 2020 5:56 pm

Crazed Republican maniac accosts Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez at work.

Rep. Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) was coming down the steps on the east side of the Capitol on Monday, having just voted, when he approached Ocasio-Cortez, who was ascending into the building to cast a vote of her own.

In a brief but heated exchange, which was overheard by a reporter, Yoho told Ocasio-Cortez she was "disgusting" for recently suggesting that poverty and unemployment are driving a spike in crime in New York City during the coronavirus pandemic.

"You are out of your freaking mind," Yoho told her.

Ocasio-Cortez shot back, telling Yoho he was being "rude."

The two then parted ways. Ocasio-Cortez headed into the building, while Yoho, joined by Rep. Roger Williams (R-Texas), began descending toward the House office buildings. A few steps down, Yoho offered a parting thought to no one in particular.

"Fucking bitch," he said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/508259-ocaasio-cortez-accosted-by-gop-lawmaker-over-remarks-that-kind-of


This is Ted Yoho:

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Re: Democrat Watch

#1796  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jul 22, 2020 2:24 am

arugula2 wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:But Ball's analysis typically talks up the threat of the Democratic Establishment and downplays the threat of the GOP. Shady as fuck and a nice pipeline from progressivism into Trumpism.


WayOfTheDodo wrote:
She's a real progressive doing insightful political analysis, so yeah, probably of no interest to you and other right-leaning people here.


Now, I wonder which description's the most credible here. :naughty2:

LifeIsWeird.jpg

The cross-pollination should be desired... this widely accepted notion of networks as cheerleaders for one or another political party, should die an embarrassing death. In that sense, both the business model of Krystal's brand (The Hill) and the fact that she's invited by race-baiting dilettantes to criticize neo-liberals, are better than the status quo of media as corporate shills.

Still, she's a hack. Unfortunately, The Hill's business model isn't strictly driven by serious journalism, and they're perfectly willing to burn that ethos to feed their own (mini)corporate maw. This is only sad because The Hill is still far better political journalism than almost anything else out there. For all I know, she's sincerely trying, and it's just that difficult to break through all the layers of Washington bs.

I have no interest in a left that's cross-pollinated by that section of the right. I want that section of the right totally destroyed. Smashed. I have no interest in a pipeline from them into socialist idealism either, because Ball and people like her don't ask those coming over to give up their worst tendencies. Having virulently racist conservatives turned into virulently racist socialists doesn't help me.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1797  Postby arugula2 » Jul 22, 2020 4:05 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:I have no interest in a left that's cross-pollinated by that section of the right. I want that section of the right totally destroyed. Smashed. I have no interest in a pipeline from them into socialist idealism either, because Ball and people like her don't ask those coming over to give up their worst tendencies. Having virulently racist conservatives turned into virulently racist socialists doesn't help me.

Idk what the purple part means - do you mean they're not censored? And then does she get to attack their ideas if she disagrees? That seems like an ideal situation - in theory anyway. The part in orange: I should think not! :suspicious:

That's a scary thought though... virulent racist socialism. Do you see it trending in this country? Please point me to it.

No, the "cross pollination" isn't whatever one makes it to be. In this case, if "racism" is your concern, you'd be heartened by the fact that Krystal is pretty much consistent on that issue, as far as I've seen. So I guess anti-racist pollen is getting scattered in "enemy" territory, if the topic comes up & there's an anti-racist in the conversation. "That section" of the right punditry (ie, Carlson's) in addition to white nationalism, hits neoliberal policy-making on issues of trade and taxation, if not sometimes also on political corruption. In the event that some portion of Carlson's listeners is drawn to that particular message and couldn't care less about white nationalist rhetoric, there isn't much else for them on the right, and there isn't anything for them on CNN/MSNBC/networks. Yet if they gather @Carlson or @Wallace as a matter of routine, there isn't anything better or more logical or more ethical even than to physically go where they are, and open one's mouth - the way Bernard did a few times, for example.

The "pipeline" metaphor is pretty irrelevant - I used it as a counterfactual in a later post, to illustrate that a GOP-er could argue the exact same thing from the other direction. Hence, the two imaginary "pipelines" cancel each other out, and the anxiety was for naught. But if you do discover the actual pipeline in action, I would like to spectate... along with the wave of racist American socialists.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1798  Postby arugula2 » Jul 22, 2020 7:12 am

Really, venues are a distraction, and so are identity politics not explicitly tied to economic injustice.

Wayne County, Michigan: a net drop of 37,000 in voter turnout from 2012 to 2016. And 2012 was an incumbency year following a disillusioning Obama first term that solidified impressions about the synergistic relationship between government and financial/corporate capital after the collapse they triggered (whose "recovery" policy they got to shape). Wayne County is the seat of Detroit, which filed for chapter 9 bankruptcy after Obama squeaked by in 2012. Much of the "recovery" in Detroit involved the gutting of public institutions, and rapid gentrification by white economic migrants taking advantage of collapse. In 2016, Trump won the state of Michigan by about 13,000 votes. That's a paltry 1/3 of the net drop in voters in Wayne County alone.

Raw trends are more stark. Despite economic malaise, the state saw between 40,000 and 100,000 net rise in voter registrations. Smaller counties adjacent to Wayne saw a net rise in votes, including Oakland and Macomb. Oakland contains one of Detroit's satellite cities, Troy, which felt the economic wallop like Detroit did, but Oakland is also one of the wealthiest counties in the country, on the balance of all the less affected white "professional" suburbanites there, which make a much larger slice of the population there than in Wayne. Wayne's population has steadily shrunk since the collapse, Oakland's has steadily grown - an echo of gentrification. Oakland was a wash: Clinton still won Oakland, with about 6000 fewer votes than Obama; Trump lost the county, with about 5000 fewer votes than Romney. Johnson (libertarian) hoovered up 23,000 votes. Those weren't going to be for Clinton.

Neither were Wayne County's 18,000 Johnson votes. But Trump "lost" Wayne and got 15,000 more votes than Romney had (see if it makes sense to think of Johnson's 18,000 as additional votes he failed to get). And Clinton "won" Wayne County but got 76,000 fewer votes than Obama. That "-37,000", then, tells us much less than that -76,000. And racist commie-bros doesn't explain what happened in the brownest city in America (and where Clinton won the primary by a larger margin than any other county in the state).

Edit: spelling*
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1799  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jul 22, 2020 1:08 pm

arugula2 wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:I have no interest in a left that's cross-pollinated by that section of the right. I want that section of the right totally destroyed. Smashed. I have no interest in a pipeline from them into socialist idealism either, because Ball and people like her don't ask those coming over to give up their worst tendencies. Having virulently racist conservatives turned into virulently racist socialists doesn't help me.

Idk what the purple part means - do you mean they're not censored? And then does she get to attack their ideas if she disagrees? That seems like an ideal situation - in theory anyway. The part in orange: I should think not! :suspicious:

That's a scary thought though... virulent racist socialism. Do you see it trending in this country? Please point me to it.

No, the "cross pollination" isn't whatever one makes it to be. In this case, if "racism" is your concern, you'd be heartened by the fact that Krystal is pretty much consistent on that issue, as far as I've seen. So I guess anti-racist pollen is getting scattered in "enemy" territory, if the topic comes up & there's an anti-racist in the conversation. "That section" of the right punditry (ie, Carlson's) in addition to white nationalism, hits neoliberal policy-making on issues of trade and taxation, if not sometimes also on political corruption. In the event that some portion of Carlson's listeners is drawn to that particular message and couldn't care less about white nationalist rhetoric, there isn't much else for them on the right, and there isn't anything for them on CNN/MSNBC/networks. Yet if they gather @Carlson or @Wallace as a matter of routine, there isn't anything better or more logical or more ethical even than to physically go where they are, and open one's mouth - the way Bernard did a few times, for example.

The "pipeline" metaphor is pretty irrelevant - I used it as a counterfactual in a later post, to illustrate that a GOP-er could argue the exact same thing from the other direction. Hence, the two imaginary "pipelines" cancel each other out, and the anxiety was for naught. But if you do discover the actual pipeline in action, I would like to spectate... along with the wave of racist American socialists.

I'm not going to ignore my actual experiences with leftists and in leftists spaces because your analysis doesn't make room for them, sorry. If you want to spectate, go into leftist spaces and see what the class-first and anti-identity politics socialists are like.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#1800  Postby arugula2 » Jul 22, 2020 7:04 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:I'm not going to ignore my actual experiences with leftists and in leftists spaces because your analysis doesn't make room for them, sorry. If you want to spectate, go into leftist spaces and see what the class-first and anti-identity politics socialists are like.

My analysis is wide open to "them" - whoever they are. I sincerely want to know the flavor and content of this "socialist" racism (let's not now migrate to "leftist", it can confuse things). I am literally inviting you to teach me about it. What is openness, if not this?

To spectate is to see. Should you persuasively point out the "pipeline" and the resultant "racist socialist" wave, I will do more than that. But first, I want to see. That's the "open" thing to do, and I am open to your ideas.
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