Democrat Watch

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Re: Democrat Watch

#2001  Postby Hermit » Aug 11, 2021 4:37 pm

The_Piper wrote:I'm well aware of that dynamic. What am I supposed to do, vote for Trumps?

Settle, petal. Nobody is upbraiding you for doing wrong or not doing enough, particularly not because - as Tortured_Genius pointed out - the 2 party first-past-the-post voting system doesn't leave you more choice than to vote for the least worst candidate.

You could in fact do worse, as the Sanders supporters demonstrated when their candidate was kneecapped in the 2016 primaries. Had they voted for Clinton instead, at least in the swing states, mother earth in general and the US of A in particular would have been spared the Trumpian clusterfuck. (You did vote for HRC in 2016, right? ;) )
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Re: Democrat Watch

#2002  Postby The_Piper » Aug 11, 2021 6:14 pm

I was a Sanders supporter, he was the best viable presidential candidate of my adult life. No, I didn't vote for Clinton, I sat out, and look what happened. :doh: I'm replying to the premise of the O'Donnell video when I rhetorically ask what am I supposed to do? I have to vote against Republicans. Conservative corporate Democrats aren't going to get me where I want to go, but Republicans will draw me even further away from that, thus in this system I must vote for the corporate Democrat when left with the 2 choices. Ranked choice voting would help immensely. I'm not a registered Democrat, although I may decide to join so I can vote in the state primaries. I thought Maine would go Bernie over Biden in a landslide again in 2020, so didn't bother, but they narrowly picked Biden in my district iirc. :lol: :nono:
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Re: Democrat Watch

#2003  Postby BlackBart » Aug 11, 2021 8:46 pm

The_Piper wrote: I sat out, and look what happened.


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Re: Democrat Watch

#2004  Postby The_Piper » Aug 11, 2021 10:43 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Democrat Watch

#2005  Postby Stein » Oct 14, 2021 1:09 am

arugula2 wrote:A lot of tedious spaghetti-straightening to do here. It'll have to be spread out. :confused:

Meanwhile: the first thing anyone needs to do, when asking 'why the fixation on AOC', is to get more acquianted with the history of civil rights in this country. That includes not just black liberation movements & (recent) immigrant rights, but also labor rights. Any valid "fixation" would have to do with the party con. The party tries to either destroy the radical new-comer who's come to expose & rebuild it, or it tries to absorb her - a dual strategy of every sociopathic power structure I know of, so no one's surprised by it (except maybe useful idiots on social media, I guess). The party con is an expression of class politics, so it's really just the wealthy class interests buying the allegiance of that occasional radical who makes it into the ranks. When they can, they'll raise up a candidate who can mimic progressive talking points and (the latest fashion) someone who's brown - like the party is doing to Nina Turner as we speak. Turner's a bit more famous than most, but the party has done exactly the same to dozens of lefty types in the past couple years. Hundreds in the last 5-6 decades. It's what it does. If you don't understand what AOC's PAC meant, and what the role of the DLC & DCCC is... then you don't know jack shit about AOC, the Dem party, or movements around either, and your reactions will show it. How little a century of civil rights movements registers, then.

Afaik, that reaction post to AOC's speech on Palestine is the first time I've ever made a post about her, other than a single sentence in another post about her fundraising plan (that was a year ago, and what a loooong year it's been for her) and a recent reply to a silly example of internet-memes-as-politics - with, again, a very short description of her self-stated goals: to sometimes scold Democrats, and to raise money for progressive challengers of Democrats. She's never interested me much, and there are plenty of other "progressive" pols to "fixate" on... as best I can tell, I'm the only one "fixating" on them, in this thread (aside from Bernie, who gets the unsurprising white male bump). Except for my replies following the Palestine post, I've written at least 5x more on Cori Bush, for example, just in this thread. Not that anyone gives a fuck about Cori Bush, amirite?

The Palestine speech happened to come up on a youtube feed. (I still subscribe to TYT Investigates - used to be for Jonathan Larsen's thoughtful reportage, but after a year+ of nothing but clips of speeches with cringey, Dem-simping ( ;) ) titles, I guess I give up on him. Well, he did post an update on the Buttigieg police tapes a couple months ago.) What I care about is Palestine. As I suggested in that very first post, she probably doesn't. I offered that she might just be ignorant on foreign policy, but I doubt that explains the speech. Also, turns out she was a foreign policy major in uni, and... handled foreign affairs issues for Ted Kennedy as a clerk. So I'm still leaning on 'she doesn't give a fuck' (and has to pretend she does).

That's neither here nor there, bc I don't care which it is. She has a platform, it's huge, and so her words matter. Pretty simple. It seemed more complicated only because people 'fixating' on AOC as anything other than a tool of the people who elected her (or a tool of the people who have since co-opted her) got into their feelings about someone criticizing her... dismissed my arguments with straw men & association fallacies... and then couldn't exhibit basic understanding of the topic of the speech (or even of the criticisms, because I've had to explain basic premises I shouldn't have had to).

I've only glanced at more recent posts... I'll get to them. But oy vey :facepalm2: How do I know Bernie thinks it's apartheid? Jfc. Later.



At first, I was furious with Israel when they dragged their heels with not only Arafat but even with Abbas, who actually took a bullet from his own people for being a peace advocate. So at first, when Rabin and Arafat got together and the Oslo accords came through, I was over the moon at the thought that the Palestinians would finally have the separate state to which they'd been long entitled and for which the U.N. had explicitly called from the beginning. Arafat and Rabin had clearly earned the Nobel Peace Prize, and I viewed the Oslo accords in the same golden light in which I saw the collapse of the Berlin wall and the accession of Nelson Mandela. It was all part of a new world where peace and hope was emerging, and benchmarks were being laid down for decency and a functional world.

Then came Bosnia and the helplessness of the U.N. there, and in Israel a lowlife settler's bullet for Rabin. Oslo later threatened to unravel, and I later wondered if Peres and Shamir were really dedicated enough to peace compared with heroes like Abbas. Little did I guess that compared to what was coming and the abuses of Netanyahu, Peres and Shamir would seem like angels, looking back.

Netanyahu has descended to depths of depravity that I never thought I'd see in a post-Berlin-wall world. His refusal to properly confront the criminal settlers once and for all has made him a criminal too. He enabled them instead. His continued check points around the West Bank, his harrowing and persecution of Gaza, have hammered nail after nail into the Oslo coffin.....

Today, what do we see? We see that Netanyahu has gained virtual allies in his clearly criminal attempt to wreck the dream of two separate states. Who are those virtual allies? They are the pioneers in the B.D.S. movement. By implicitly pretending that Netanyahu has somehow rendered the dream of two states obsolete -- an absurd, obscene and immoral assumption on a par with the sick complacent assumption back in the 1850s that the South had somehow rendered Abolition impossible! -- they left-handedly work for a single state, which is a de facto recipe for genocide of either demographic by the other. Fellow travelers compound this obscenity by total ignorance on the essence of what is meant by apartheid. Yes, the policy of bantus for the subordinate demographic is reminiscent of apartheid. But what is unfolding elsewhere, inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel proper, bloody well isn't. Inside, it may still be deplorable for other reasons, yes, but it is not apartheid. Hyperbole, never mind abject historic ignorance, helps no one.

At this point, the cretins who throw around words like "apartheid", and such sick notions as the unstoppable death of two states, have even ended up with blood on their hands. The statistics for the concluding year or so of the last decade show that the greatest hate-crime spike has been against Jews. Abuses against Jewish students in campuses across the country have also ratcheted up in a direct parallel with the increased demonization of Israel. Whether by intent or not, advocacy for the Palestinians today has been coopted as a de facto antisemitic enterprise. Its DNA grows filthier by the day. I don't know if its integrity can ever be restored. I only know I no longer want any part of it. It has ended up as a de facto movement aimed at the total destruction of Israel, a step that Abbas or the U.N. would never have taken, on their angriest days.

None of this extenuates the horrors of what Israel has unleashed in Gaza one bit, nor the sheer desecration in what Netanyahu has done to Oslo. But modern-day advocates for Palestinians now fill me with as much distrust as ever I have felt and still feel for Netanyahu.

I first threw in my lot for a good part of my life with friends who shared my outrage over the treatment of the Palestinians. For me, siding with the Palestinians was obviously the only moral choice.

But when the tenor of the Palestinian cause here in the U.S. morphed this past decade into a widespread belief that Israel should never have been launched at all, that two states was somehow impossible (!!!!!!!!!), that the only good Jewish state was a dead one, I felt I'd been had for half my life. There is no hatred so intense as self-hatred and self-contempt. When, finally, one of my friends actually remarked that I shouldn't be so put out by and exercised over Israel's extremist settlers because "what else could one expect from greedy Jews", I not only severed all connections with him but grew to profoundly distrust almost anyone with an animus against Israel and to profoundly despise my own idiocy as well in having not seen the DNA of many a Palestinian advocate long before that "friend"'s "greedy Jew" remark.

Irrational? Maybe. But finally, when the BDS movement tacitly dispensed with the notion of two states altogether (!!!!), that was the final nail in the coffin. I am now so disgusted with my own stupidity and blindness at the associations I've cultivated that my consequent profound distrust of the DNA in any advocate for the Palestinians leads me to be suspicious first and ask questions second.

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Re: Democrat Watch

#2006  Postby proudfootz » Oct 16, 2021 10:48 pm

I'd keep well away from ascribing evil to genetic factors along the lines of 'the filthy DNA' of those whose politics doesn't align with my own. Such rhetoric has a rather insalubrious history.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#2007  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 17, 2021 12:04 am

I think it's perfectly possible to acknowledge the atrocious actions of the Israeli state without even momentarily thinking to blame Jews en masse. I also think that this transparently specious false dilemma has been erected so many times now as a smoke-screen, it's worthy of being considered hackneyed.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#2008  Postby Alan C » Oct 17, 2021 9:06 pm

Meanwhile, Manchin is a wanker that's clearly looking out for his own self-interests and that of his rich donor mates, fuck climate.
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Re: Democrat Watch

#2009  Postby Stein » Oct 22, 2021 4:21 am

Spearthrower wrote:I think it's perfectly possible to acknowledge the atrocious actions of the Israeli state without even momentarily thinking to blame Jews en masse. I also think that this transparently specious false dilemma has been erected so many times now as a smoke-screen, it's worthy of being considered hackneyed.


Once one adopts the blatant double standard of advocating for a state for the Palestinians but not one for the Israelis, that is antisemitic. One sauce for the goose but another for the gander! That's a blatant one-way street right out of David Duke. Only sophistry rationalizes something that blatant as free of plain old bigotry. Tell me another.

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Re: Democrat Watch

#2010  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 22, 2021 7:08 am

Stein wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:I think it's perfectly possible to acknowledge the atrocious actions of the Israeli state without even momentarily thinking to blame Jews en masse. I also think that this transparently specious false dilemma has been erected so many times now as a smoke-screen, it's worthy of being considered hackneyed.


Once one adopts the blatant double standard of advocating for a state for the Palestinians but not one for the Israelis, that is antisemitic. One sauce for the goose but another for the gander! That's a blatant one-way street right out of David Duke. Only sophistry rationalizes something that blatant as free of plain old bigotry. Tell me another.

Stein



Which part of what I wrote suggests that I don't accept the Israeli state?

You've projected that onto what I wrote and then called it antisemitic and then likened me to being a leader of the KKK.

Frankly, this corroborates what I was saying. It's such a transparently specious false dilemma, you have to make up a load of bullshit out of thin air to maintain it.
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