Extinction Rebellion are on point.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#601  Postby gobshite » Mar 01, 2020 6:00 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
minininja wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Seriously, I get that something needs to be done, but why not pour all that energy into figuring out a way that will actually accomplish something besides pissing off people trying to go to work? And making yourself look like the classic cartoon of an environmental looney in the process?

Feel free to contribute.

I just did. And if anyone gave it even a second's thought, and adjusted their tactics based on the really obvious shit I pointed out, then I will have accomplished more than XR by their own admission.


Adjust their tactics to what? Everything we've tried so far hasn't worked. Global emissions continue to rise unabated.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#602  Postby gobshite » Mar 01, 2020 6:12 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Hermit wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Nobody need live in near destitution, I never said that: I said the polar opposite.

So somehow, despite there being less wealth going around because of a shrinking economy, people will be fantastically rich, which is the polar opposite of destitution. Color me skeptical!

SafeAsMilk, that is a spectacular twist of what Keep It Real meant. "The polar opposite" is his reply to your "What makes you think that people are willing to live in near destitution for the sake of the environment?" In other words, he is saying that nobody will live in near destitution after creaming off some of the surplus wealth of the top 5%. Considering that the wealth ofthe 62 richest people in the world exceeds the wealth of 50% of the world's population, that is a realistic assertion to make.

Image

Can you demonstrate that it's a realistic assertion to make? Especially with a diminishing economy, as KIR's suggested?


87596833_2594061787539653_5195268664026202112_n.jpg
87596833_2594061787539653_5195268664026202112_n.jpg (39.19 KiB) Viewed 521 times


This isn't to say that we should do this or that there wouldn't be consequences of this, but just to highlight the amounts of money we are talking about when it comes to the very rich.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#603  Postby gobshite » Mar 01, 2020 6:34 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
Hermit wrote:
SafeAsMilk, I just told you, in a way that does not transgress this forum's rules, why discussing matters economic with you is a waste of time. Your reply - asking me to go ahead and explain stuff to you - makes it obvious that that penny hasn't dropped.


Here is your strongest effort at "discussing" economics, Hermit:

Hermit wrote:What would a more equitable redistribution of wealth look like? Making the rich pay taxes would make for a good start. Get rid of tax havens to begin with. Too many companies post wonderful profit figures and pay handsome dividends to shareholders, yet manage to pay little or no corporate taxes. Weird how Microsoft declared a $200 million dollar tax in Australia one year, but while our corporate tax rate was 30% at the time, it paid something like $75,000. There was absolutely nothing illegal about it at all. Loopholes are a wonderful thing. Another company sold one of its subsidiaries for 50% more than it paid for it after accounting for depreciation, improvements and so on. It finished up getting a tax credit for that. Don't ask me how, but that too was perfectly legal. The laws are rigged in favour of the moneyed class. The loopholes need to be closed.


The system is run by the wealthy, and you even seem to understand that they make the rules to suit themselves. You have a deft command of a number of results of this, but your 'analysis' consists of nothing but pointing out the obvious. You've cited some figures, and used the opportunity to abuse someone who's asked you if you know how to fix the problem -- by nattering about the difference between an asset and the income stream it produces. And yet, and yet: You're the one who posted the absolutely useless chart showing the wealth of the richest 62 people compared to the poorest 50% of the world's population, and that was about assets and not about income streams. A natural question is then, "why 62?" That's how many it takes, I guess. Wow. Somebody made something equal something else, by tweaking a variable. Will it be 62 next year? Unwarranted precision is what that is.

If you think you've made a stronger statement elsewhere, by all means link to it. What you write, above, is exactly the equivalent of saying "put the chicken in the oven and cook it". You've correctly identified that there are tax loopholes and that they should be closed. You get a gold star for that one, pal.

There's no economics to discuss. The solution to unequal wealth distribution is redistribution of wealth: Department of Tautology Department. Why don't you ask why so many politicians are openly for sale? You humanist, you!

Hermit wrote:How many more times can I say it? Make the system more equitable.


And your solution to an inequitable system is to make the system more equitable, which is a stroke of fucking genius. Who makes the tax code? Politicians bought by people who have the most interest in tilting the tax code to their advantage, that's who. You knew that, though, didn't you?

Hermit wrote:It 's not a matter of taking wealth out of the wealthy. It's a matter of distributing it more equitably.


Still no implementation details in sight.


You've correctly identified why civil disobedience like what XR engages in might be necessary to bring about change.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#604  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 01, 2020 8:30 am

gobshite wrote:You've correctly identified why civil disobedience like what XR engages in might be necessary to bring about change.


Never forget the distinction between necessary and sufficient.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#605  Postby Hermit » Mar 01, 2020 9:34 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
gobshite wrote:You've correctly identified why civil disobedience like what XR engages in might be necessary to bring about change.

Never forget the distinction between necessary and sufficient.

The XR movement may well tank as quickly as the Occupy movement did, and with as little to show for it. Just the same, it's worth a try unless you subscribe to the "If you don't at first succeed, give up" doctrine.
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#606  Postby Macdoc » Mar 01, 2020 11:21 am

A virus is doing what XR may not be able to.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#607  Postby Ironclad » Mar 01, 2020 11:40 am

Good.
For Van Youngman - see you amongst the stardust, old buddy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#608  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 01, 2020 5:55 pm

gobshite wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
minininja wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Seriously, I get that something needs to be done, but why not pour all that energy into figuring out a way that will actually accomplish something besides pissing off people trying to go to work? And making yourself look like the classic cartoon of an environmental looney in the process?

Feel free to contribute.

I just did. And if anyone gave it even a second's thought, and adjusted their tactics based on the really obvious shit I pointed out, then I will have accomplished more than XR by their own admission.


Adjust their tactics to what? Everything we've tried so far hasn't worked. Global emissions continue to rise unabated.

I'm not sure why you're now the second person seeking marching orders from me based on having the incredibly obvious insight that harassing regular people at the airport ain't gonna win any hearts and minds, and in fact does the opposite by environmentalists in general look like out of touch wackjobs. I can't express how obvious this seems, and how incredibly unsurprised I am that such efforts don't work. If you want my suggestion, it's in the post. If such an admittedly modest, basic, straightforward idea doesn't at least point you in a better direction, then clearly nothing more in-depth from me (or anyone else) can possibly help you. It's rather like me warning someone that they're about to step in dog shit, and their reply is "Oh yeah? Well why don't you lay out your plan to keep people from letting their dogs crap on the sidewalk?!"
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#609  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 01, 2020 6:25 pm

Hermit wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
gobshite wrote:You've correctly identified why civil disobedience like what XR engages in might be necessary to bring about change.

Never forget the distinction between necessary and sufficient.

The XR movement may well tank as quickly as the Occupy movement did, and with as little to show for it. Just the same, it's worth a try unless you subscribe to the "If you don't at first succeed, give up" doctrine.


I won't harass them if they come to my town. I'm hoping they've already succeeded in at least one small way, which is to help themselves feel less powerless in the face of a world that is spinning out of their control.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#610  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 01, 2020 6:28 pm

I subscribe to the "If at first you don't succeed, learn from your mistakes" doctrine. Here's hoping.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#611  Postby Cito di Pense » Mar 01, 2020 6:35 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:I subscribe to the "If at first you don't succeed, learn from your mistakes" doctrine. Here's hoping.


That reminds me of an old favorite one-liner: If at first you don't succeed, then maybe skydiving isn't for you.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#612  Postby gobshite » Mar 01, 2020 10:59 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
gobshite wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
minininja wrote:
Feel free to contribute.

I just did. And if anyone gave it even a second's thought, and adjusted their tactics based on the really obvious shit I pointed out, then I will have accomplished more than XR by their own admission.


Adjust their tactics to what? Everything we've tried so far hasn't worked. Global emissions continue to rise unabated.

I'm not sure why you're now the second person seeking marching orders from me based on having the incredibly obvious insight that harassing regular people at the airport ain't gonna win any hearts and minds, and in fact does the opposite by environmentalists in general look like out of touch wackjobs. I can't express how obvious this seems, and how incredibly unsurprised I am that such efforts don't work. If you want my suggestion, it's in the post. If such an admittedly modest, basic, straightforward idea doesn't at least point you in a better direction, then clearly nothing more in-depth from me (or anyone else) can possibly help you. It's rather like me warning someone that they're about to step in dog shit, and their reply is "Oh yeah? Well why don't you lay out your plan to keep people from letting their dogs crap on the sidewalk?!"


You could have just said you have no idea what tactics will work. Would have saved you a lot of typing.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#613  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 01, 2020 11:38 pm

gobshite wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
gobshite wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
I just did. And if anyone gave it even a second's thought, and adjusted their tactics based on the really obvious shit I pointed out, then I will have accomplished more than XR by their own admission.


Adjust their tactics to what? Everything we've tried so far hasn't worked. Global emissions continue to rise unabated.

I'm not sure why you're now the second person seeking marching orders from me based on having the incredibly obvious insight that harassing regular people at the airport ain't gonna win any hearts and minds, and in fact does the opposite by environmentalists in general look like out of touch wackjobs. I can't express how obvious this seems, and how incredibly unsurprised I am that such efforts don't work. If you want my suggestion, it's in the post. If such an admittedly modest, basic, straightforward idea doesn't at least point you in a better direction, then clearly nothing more in-depth from me (or anyone else) can possibly help you. It's rather like me warning someone that they're about to step in dog shit, and their reply is "Oh yeah? Well why don't you lay out your plan to keep people from letting their dogs crap on the sidewalk?!"


You could have just said you have no idea what tactics will work. Would have saved you a lot of typing.

Apparently not, because it's already in the post you were replying to and you still didn't get it. You seemed to be begging for some spoon-feeding, but I'll be sure not to oblige next time you're here crying "But why did my stupid idea not work?!" At least you can say you're doing an excellent job making environmentalists look like out of touch wackjobs.
"They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#614  Postby gobshite » Mar 02, 2020 1:36 am

So you don't know what works, but you are sure that civil disobedience doesn't work. Ok. What are you basing that on? Other than your fee fees? Climate change concern is on the rise as an issue according to polls, so it's not unreasonable to think that increased climate activism is contributing to that increasing awareness.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#615  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 02, 2020 1:54 am

gobshite wrote:So you don't know what works, but you are sure that civil disobedience doesn't work.

I see reading is not your strong suit. I said harassing people at the airport doesn't work. But I don't have to tell you that, you already know firsthand! And now here you are, desperately scrounging around for ideas from random people on the internet :lol:

Ok. What are you basing that on? Other than your fee fees? Climate change concern is on the rise as an issue according to polls, so it's not unreasonable to think that increased climate activism is contributing to that increasing awareness.

And I'm sure giant corporations are glad you're doing your level best to make climate activism look as bad as possible.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#616  Postby gobshite » Mar 02, 2020 3:32 am

Ok, so you are basing it on your fee fees. I'll keep that in mind when you make claims in the future.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#617  Postby SafeAsMilk » Mar 02, 2020 4:50 am

gobshite wrote:Ok, so you are basing it on your fee fees.

...he said ironically, as he tearfully lashed out at the guy who's advice he'd asked for. If only someone would just tell him what to do! :lol:

I'll keep that in mind when you make claims in the future.

Well there's certainly enough empty space for it to rattle around up there.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#618  Postby gobshite » Mar 02, 2020 6:15 am

I don't want anyone to tell me what to do. Not sure where you are going with that bizarre line of "reasoning". :scratch: I'm just wondering if you are going to back your opinion up with something other than an argument from incredulity.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#619  Postby tuco » Mar 02, 2020 8:12 am

Nowhere, going nowhere. In time you will find out that some people go nowhere and keep posting just because that is what they like to do. There is no point, there is nothing to learn, it's like talking with them about the weather with the difference that they refuse to cooperate. Just ignore them.

---
edit: As far as what XR achieved. Well, it's hard to measure but it seems to me that they raised awareness about the issue at hand quite a bit which is invaluable to the cause. First, people need to realize they are doing it wrong, then they can fix it and fixing it takes time.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#620  Postby tuco » Mar 02, 2020 9:08 am

Macdoc wrote:A virus is doing what XR may not be able to.

Image

Image


Indeed

13,000 Missing Flights: The Global Consequences of the Coronavirus - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ravel.html

So it's not that people don't want to survive, they are just idiots and can't don't want to think too much ahead and too let's say complex. Everyone understands the danger of the virus.
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