Extinction Rebellion are on point.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#681  Postby Macdoc » Sep 26, 2021 12:57 am

Carbon offsets might have been a good idea ten or twenty years ago, as a means of flattening the curve while better solutions were found, but we're pretty much beyond piecemeal, band-aid solutions now, because the climate is a gaping wound. They could conceivably have slowed AGW sufficiently to buy us a few decades of research into carbon-neutral energy. As it is, they're little more than gesture politics.


you take it up with Suzuki and others. Not into unsupported pronouncements from on high.

....there are NO quick fixes, anything that offsets current carbon emissions contributes to the effort to get to a carbon neutral civilization emitting little or no CO2 and that is still decades away.

Can you shut down the fashion industry which accounts for 8% of global emissions? ....no. Maybe you don't contribute to it but you aren't getting it shut down.
However you can personally offset some of the damage done by that industry by buying offset credits which can aid in projects like this

https://www.producer.com/news/carbon-of ... er-profit/

https://impactful.ninja/the-history-of- ... 0Agreement.

You have $20 a month available ...tell me what else you can do with that to move toward a carbon neutral civilization?

2 July 2021
Tackling global warming with soil

The fight against climate change has never been more important. Professor Budiman Minasny is exploring how soil can be a sustainable and potentially powerful tool to combat the effects of global warming.

It’s too late. There is now general agreement that the time has passed when we could have tackled climate change by only reducing the use of fossil fuels.
Now we also have to look at mechanical ways to remove excess carbon from the air.

The current carbon-capture technologies still have quite some way to go, but there are existing mechanisms that deal with massive quantities of carbon every day, both capture and storage. They are forests, the ocean and soil.
A global effort is now under way to understand the best ways to bring these ecosystems to the climate change fight.


https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/ ... hange.html

Even if we stopped CO2 emissions entirely cold turkey the climate will continue to warm for decades. Sequestration projects are vital ....and biological ones accessible early on to individuals and businesses. They also in most cases have knock on benefits to bio-diversity and water conservation.

snip
The solutions that are achievable are likely to be diverse and incremental. There will be no single global “silver bullet”, but rather a vast array of small, diverse, and hopefully interconnecting “silver buckshot” policies70.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18887-7
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#682  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 26, 2021 7:35 am

Macdoc wrote:
you take it up with Suzuki and others. Not into unsupported pronouncements from on high.


That's not how discussions work. No one's asking to have a conversation with Suzuki. If you have an argument you want to make, then make it - but waving at someone else isn't doing anything. Plus, please recall the irony of you pointing to Suzuki before, and the link you provided presenting a clearly contrary position to the one you seemed to be taking.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#683  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 26, 2021 7:43 am

Macdoc wrote:You'd be wrong but no convincing the entrenched. :coffee:

Perhaps you'd like to argue your point with David Suzuki
https://davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can-do/carbon-offsets/

Carbon reduction of any form is valuable and it's just one more tool to achieve that as the world attempts carbon neutral.



This is what your link says:

Buying offsets helps individuals take into account the environmental costs of air travel. The price per tonne of offsets, however, is far below the estimated costs of damage that a tonne of carbon pollution will cause via global warming and ocean acidification. Although carbon offsets are good for when you do fly, it is better to stop flying altogether, or if you must fly, do so only when necessary and stay longer.


Which doesn't exactly seem contradictory to what I wrote that caused you to reach for this link.

In reality, far too much of carbon offset trading is corporate virtue signalling - the pretense of doing something while carrying on with business as usual. Stopping the activities that are damaging the atmosphere we all depend on is the real gold standard.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#684  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 26, 2021 9:11 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:You're misrepresenting me, Agi.

I‘ll try to sort it out tomorrow, had a long day and a few drinks before I read this.


No worries. I was just genuinely trying to understand your point and [/u] why you thought I said something vastly different than I'd intended.[/u]

quite frankly, I am having trouble with that too this morning.

Please accept my apology for the brainfarts and the confusion on the previous page. :shifty:
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#685  Postby hackenslash » Sep 26, 2021 9:54 am

Macdoc wrote:you take it up with Suzuki and others. Not into unsupported pronouncements from on high.


Yes, because anthropogenic climate change is a genetic disorder...

Tell you what; I'll take it up with whichever dumb cunt promulgates this fucking ridiculous rectal masala on any given day.

....there are NO quick fixes,


Well, I'm sure none of us would ever have worked that out without your stellar input. Go on, patronise me again. And point to another McExpert who agrees with you (or, more accurately, who you only think agrees with you).

anything that offsets current carbon emissions contributes to the effort to get to a carbon neutral civilization emitting little or no CO2 and that is still decades away.


This is so stupid it could almost be Robert Byers. Adding CO2 to the atmosphere contributes to carbon-neutrality. You heard it here first, folks.

Can you shut down the fashion industry which accounts for 8% of global emissions? ....no. Maybe you don't contribute to it but you aren't getting it shut down.
However you can personally offset some of the damage done by that industry by buying offset credits which can aid in projects like this

https://www.producer.com/news/carbon-of ... er-profit/

https://impactful.ninja/the-history-of- ... 0Agreement.

You have $20 a month available ...tell me what else you can do with that to move toward a carbon neutral civilization?


I'd like my twenty dollars, and everybody else's, to go to funding fusion research. You know, a real solution that actually cuts carbon emissions.

2 July 2021
Tackling global warming with soil

The fight against climate change has never been more important. Professor Budiman Minasny is exploring how soil can be a sustainable and potentially powerful tool to combat the effects of global warming.

It’s too late. There is now general agreement that the time has passed when we could have tackled climate change by only reducing the use of fossil fuels.
Now we also have to look at mechanical ways to remove excess carbon from the air.

The current carbon-capture technologies still have quite some way to go, but there are existing mechanisms that deal with massive quantities of carbon every day, both capture and storage. They are forests, the ocean and soil.
A global effort is now under way to understand the best ways to bring these ecosystems to the climate change fight.


https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/ ... hange.html

Even if we stopped CO2 emissions entirely cold turkey the climate will continue to warm for decades. Sequestration projects are vital ....and biological ones accessible early on to individuals and businesses. They also in most cases have knock on benefits to bio-diversity and water conservation.

snip
The solutions that are achievable are likely to be diverse and incremental. There will be no single global “silver bullet”, but rather a vast array of small, diverse, and hopefully interconnecting “silver buckshot” policies70.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18887-7


At least sequestration is an active reducer. Not sure what relevance it has to the offsetting guff.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#686  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 26, 2021 10:16 am

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Please accept my apology for the brainfarts and the confusion on the previous page. :shifty:


Not a problem - I hope the booze was enjoyable! :grin:
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#687  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 26, 2021 10:25 am

hackenslash wrote:
At least sequestration is an active reducer. Not sure what relevance it has to the offsetting guff.


Under the most particular and idealized instances, carbon offsetting can be directed towards funding and maintaining sequestration programs... that's the steel-man sum of the tenuous links.

In such very specific instances, offsetting is a fine idea for maintaining stasis in an economy that keeps putting out atmospheric pollutants, and as you already indicated, potentially giving us the time to contrive better technology. But stasis isn't sufficient now, and the majority of offsetting still incurs a net increase in atmospheric carbon which we simply cannot afford, and cannot fool ourselves into believing we're doing something substantive.

Also, the irony herein is that saving our atmosphere, according to prevailing wisdom, has to be cost-effective and financially sound, rather than a fucking dire emergency which doesn't actually need to provide a profit to some suite of newly-minted CEO's.
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Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#688  Postby THWOTH » Sep 26, 2021 10:47 am

Macdoc wrote:What is naive is thinking 1.5c will be avoided.....or even 2.0.

Fatalism isn't an argument, or even an opinion. It's a way of avoiding an issue by implying that there's nothing to be done, that it's a self-evident fact-of-life, that it's 'in the lap of the gods' or whatever. In this context it's indistinguishable from latter-day millennialism, or apocalypticism. What exactly are you trying to convince us of here?

Macdoc wrote:
Every bit of carbon reduction helps and relying on a single massive effort worldwide is very the definition of naive thinking.
Mitigating the climate problem will require " a million Manhattan projects" to quote a guy on the levers of the monetary system needed.
From less meat to more renewables, EVs to reforestation it will take a broad front
...expecting politicians to execute this alone is just ludicrous wishful thinking. :coffee:

And yet the scientific consensus is robust; supported; clear. There's only one pathway remaining to reducing global heating to less that 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels: a reduction in CO2 emissions to 45% of 2010 levels by 2030 in order to limit global warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels by 2050: https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/

It's a strawman to suggest that, because I challenged you views, I'm 'expecting politicians to execute this alone'. Aside from presuming that I apparently think individuals have no part to play here it also implies that individuals action can (and possibly will) significantly mitigate further damage to the environment simply by making different consumer choices, like eating less meat, buying an electric car or switching to a green energy supplier. By this I assume you mean that businesses and markets just need to provide more 'green' products and services to solve the crisis non-green business and market practice has brought about.

While all those things are positive and can contribute in their own way, at the same time we still need to reduce CO2 emissions to 45% of 2010 levels by 2030. Ask yourself why a conservative climate report with text and conclusions negotiated by 192 countries is framing the issue in those terms? Why do we 'need' to do this? When balancing the individual and social consequences against the economic consequences of climate change, which side of the scales are the government most concerned about? What has motivated them to sign-off a report which says that there's now only one pathway to limiting global warming? Well, "It's the economy stupid." They recognise that the economic consequences of not doing acting now are far more severe than making the changes necessary today that will limit global heating tomorrow. If this had ever been about things like people , justice, and suffering we would not have found ourselves in this position to start with, would we?

Who among us, the ordinary, regular, individual folk who make up societies have the ability to implement the massive infrastructure projects that are needed here? What businesses or markets have the power, let alone the inclination, to drive that kind of reform? So yeah, 'we' have to do this together and we can all play a part, but we have to do it though those structures which can actually effect a wholesale change in our economic systems for long-term sustainability - specifically governments, and particularly governments with control over central banks.

Mitigation is the wrong concept to fall back on here. It implies there is room for negotiation or compromise on ameliorating the effects of climate change. Mother Nature can't be negotiated with and the climate and ecological crisis is ongoing, and increasing apace - what is needed now is rapid adaptation to the realities of the situation.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#689  Postby felltoearth » Sep 26, 2021 1:32 pm

This is huge.

China Says It Will Stop Financing Coal Power Abroad - Scientific American
China will stop building coal-fired power projects in other countries, President Xi Jinping said yesterday in an announcement that's expected to accelerate the global shift away from fossil fuels.
The pledge, made at the U.N. General Assembly in New York, comes as other industrialized nations are reversing economic policies that fueled the construction of coal plants outside of their borders, often in energy-deprived nations that are vulnerable to the effects of poverty and climate change. China's move shadows similar decisions by South Korea and top coal financiers in the Group of Seven (Climatewire, June 14).



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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#690  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Sep 26, 2021 4:00 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Agi Hammerthief wrote:
Please accept my apology for the brainfarts and the confusion on the previous page. :shifty:

Not a problem - I hope the booze was enjoyable! :grin:

:cheers: it was, but I‘m not blaming the brainfart on the booze, that happened entirely sober.
under boozefluence I thought „I might have fucked up earlier, I‘ll definetely fuck it up further if I try and fix it now“
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#691  Postby felltoearth » Oct 19, 2021 12:11 pm

From July but I think missed here.

Greenland halts new oil exploration to combat climate change and focus on sustainable development - CBS News
Greenland has suspended all new oil and gas exploration, the country's government announced Thursday. Government officials said they believe the "price of oil extraction is too high," citing both economic considerations and the fight against climate change. 

"This step has been taken for the sake of our nature, for the sake of our fisheries, for the sake of our tourism industry, and to focus our business on sustainable potentials," the government, called Naalakkersuisut, said in a statement



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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#692  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Oct 26, 2021 3:15 pm

I'm in kind of a fatalistic mindset about all this. I don't think it is going to work unless there is a feasible technological solution to produce all the energy the world is producing now with clean technology. So I really don't worry, just let scientists and engineers solve this. And if they don't solve it, we're going to have to live with a much hotter climate.

The idea we are going to consume less is ridiculous. I think the world is going to consume a lot more over the coming decades.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#693  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 26, 2021 3:24 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
The idea we are going to consume less is ridiculous.


I beg to "differ" (holy fucking cunt what a toxic and untrue statement) but there's a burgeoning minimalist living movement in't zeitgeist. This Facebook group has over 51,000 members, for example.

Crossing our fingers that (physical) science will save us is foolish, not to mention ethically delinquent IMO. Social science, yes, that's the way.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#694  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Oct 26, 2021 4:02 pm

Keep It Real wrote:there's a burgeoning minimalist living movement in't zeitgeist.


How do they heat their homes? How do they do the laundry? How do they keep food fresh?

We all need electrical power, we all want washing machines. I think we're not going back to washing by hand. We have all these conveniences and we're not going to give them up.

We can cut back a little bit, say 25 %, using engineering solutions to make things like travel and appliances more economical. But rising prosperity in places like Africa and India etc means their consumption is going to go way up, they want fridges and airco too.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#695  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Oct 26, 2021 4:43 pm

one of my co-workers has so much solar power he doesn’t know where to put it.
and my home town is more or less famous for shit summers and shit winters. 53N where is the fucking „degree“ circle on mobile device?
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#696  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Oct 26, 2021 5:21 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:one of my co-workers has so much solar power he doesn’t know where to put it.
and my home town is more or less famous for shit summers and shit winters. 53N where is the fucking „degree“ circle on mobile device?


Homes can do a lot with solar power, I think clean energy can probably supply homes with enough power eventually. Maybe add nuclear to the mix too. I am not sure about industry's energy needs.

I am not pessimistic, it's more wait and see. I can't solve this, scientists will need to come up with the solutions.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#697  Postby Keep It Real » Oct 26, 2021 5:58 pm

Agi Hammerthief wrote:one of my co-workers has so much solar power he doesn’t know where to put it.
and my home town is more or less famous for shit summers and shit winters. 53N where is the fucking „degree“ circle on mobile device?


I was ruminating just the other day on the (relative) "GREEN" environmental strength of modern Germany, in both political strength of the green party in Germany and genpop. As a Brit, am I jealous? Jealous is not the right word......and fuck the CDU.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#698  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 27, 2021 2:20 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:there's a burgeoning minimalist living movement in't zeitgeist.


How do they heat their homes? How do they do the laundry? How do they keep food fresh?

We all need electrical power, we all want washing machines. I think we're not going back to washing by hand. We have all these conveniences and we're not going to give them up.

We can cut back a little bit, say 25 %, using engineering solutions to make things like travel and appliances more economical. But rising prosperity in places like Africa and India etc means their consumption is going to go way up, they want fridges and airco too.



Just a simple truth, so one that some people will be predisposed against. People will continue to expect the above, although they'd largely be happy to spend money to minimize the impact of such conveniences on the environment. Additional to the above, there's also the impact of living in different climates. It might be feasible to do without refrigeration in the far north of the world, but not so much in the tropics.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#699  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Oct 27, 2021 10:20 am

Spearthrower wrote:
Just a simple truth, so one that some people will be predisposed against. People will continue to expect the above, although they'd largely be happy to spend money to minimize the impact of such conveniences on the environment.


I don't think the burden should be on the average consumer though.

Politicians need to watch out with this. If the bills rise too high for average folks who frankly with things like rent being as high as they are have no extra money to spend on anything, the willingness to do anything about climate change is going to be zero.
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Extinction Rebellion are on point.

#700  Postby felltoearth » Oct 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Consumption needs to be defined but yes the “Reduce” part of the 3Rs is on the minds of a lot of people these days, especially as it’s becoming evident that The “recycle” part of the 3Rs is a bit of a smokescreen and we aren’t recycling as much as we think we are.

There’s a looming sand shortage that will send concrete prices through the roof more so than they are already. This will force us to use that concrete. Mass timber construction is just around the corner in large uptake in the design and construction industry. Renewables are the only way to go.


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