Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of Gays

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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#21  Postby Strontium Dog » Sep 01, 2010 12:32 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:So now its "thousands" and a "crime against humanity" is it? :o

Now who's misrepresenting? :dance:

Turn your heater down there bud, you're gonna blow a gasket, and then go look up what a crime against humanity is. Right after that back up your claim of "thousands."


Yes it's a fucking crime against humanity, and yes, it was thousands, though it would still be wholly wrong if it was one or one million.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/movie ... nding.html

In Cuba, thousands of homosexuals were sent to concentration camps in the late 1960's, together with others deemed deviant by the Castro regime. Echoing the slogan on the gates of Auschwitz, the camps were emblazoned with the words "Work will make you men."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... l_behavior

Thousands of homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, conscientious objectors, and dissidents were forced to conduct their compulsory military service in the 1960s at UMAP camps, where they were subject to political "re-education".[55][69] Military commanders brutalized the inmates.[70] Carlos Alberto Montaner says "Camps of forced labour were instituted with all speed to "correct" such deviations.... Verbal and physical mistreatment, shaved heads, work from dawn to dusk, hammocks, dirt floors, scarce food.... The camps became increasingly crowded as the methods of arrest became more expedient".[55]

In the late 1960s, because of "revolutionary social hygiene", the Castro government claimed to cleanse the arts of "fraudulent sodomitic" writers and "sick effeminate" dancers.[71] Additionally, men with long hair were locked up and their hair was cut.[72]

Castro has asserted, "in the country, there are no homosexuals",[73] and denounced "maricones" ("faggots") as "agents of imperialism".[74] Castro has asserted that "homosexuals should not be allowed in positions where they are able to exert influence upon young people".[75]


It makes me fucking sick how you continually play down the suffering of these people.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#22  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Sep 01, 2010 2:34 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
FACT-MAN-2 wrote:So now its "thousands" and a "crime against humanity" is it? :o

Now who's misrepresenting? :dance:

Turn your heater down there bud, you're gonna blow a gasket, and then go look up what a crime against humanity is. Right after that back up your claim of "thousands."

Yes it's a fucking crime against humanity, and yes, it was thousands, though it would still be wholly wrong if it was one or one million.

Like I said, you're going to blow a gasket, if you haven't already.

I didn't think you'd make the effort to go find the meaning of the term "Crime against humanity," so here, I did it for you:

From: http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/C/CrimesAgainstHumanity.aspx


Crimes Against Humanity: An international criminal justice offence; the perpetration of [u]acts of war[/i] upon a civilian, non-soldier population --

A term used by, within and as so defined by the International Criminal Court treaty and including any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

•Murder;
•Extermination;
•Enslavement;
•Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
•Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
•Torture;
•Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
•Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender, (...) or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law (...)
•Enforced disappearance of persons;
•The crime of apartheid;
•Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.


Nothing that happened in Cuba in the 1960's satisfies these criteria, so your cavalier and undiciplined use of language is duly noted. Not that it's anything new, mind you. :yuk:

Strontium Dog wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/movie ... nding.html

In Cuba, thousands of homosexuals were sent to concentration camps in the late 1960's, together with others deemed deviant by the Castro regime. Echoing the slogan on the gates of Auschwitz, the camps were emblazoned with the words "Work will make you men."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... l_behavior

Thousands of homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, conscientious objectors, and dissidents were forced to conduct their compulsory military service in the 1960s at UMAP camps, where they were subject to political "re-education".[55][69] Military commanders brutalized the inmates.[70] Carlos Alberto Montaner says "Camps of forced labour were instituted with all speed to "correct" such deviations.... Verbal and physical mistreatment, shaved heads, work from dawn to dusk, hammocks, dirt floors, scarce food.... The camps became increasingly crowded as the methods of arrest became more expedient".[55]

In the late 1960s, because of "revolutionary social hygiene", the Castro government claimed to cleanse the arts of "fraudulent sodomitic" writers and "sick effeminate" dancers.[71] Additionally, men with long hair were locked up and their hair was cut.[72]

Castro has asserted, "in the country, there are no homosexuals",[73] and denounced "maricones" ("faggots") as "agents of imperialism".[74] Castro has asserted that "homosexuals should not be allowed in positions where they are able to exert influence upon young people".[75]


It makes me fucking sick how you continually play down the suffering of these people.

Likewise, I become ill at your constant badgering of Cuba's revolution. You aren't as concerned about the well being of Cubans as you are just flat pissed off that a people's revolution has succeeded and has done so against all odds. That's your angst. It shines like a supernova in the subtext of all you write about Cuba.

I have been to Cuba, several times as a matter of fact. I've spent a good deal of time there, gotten to know its people and the conditions in which they live. You haven't ... because in your land of the free you are not free to do so, ha, ha, ha. The joke's on you, buster.

The shit you quote from the NY Times is common everyday Cuba bashing and demonization that's gone on since 1960 and is about as honest as George Bush talking about WMDs in Iraq.

Now, we're talking about the 1960's, a period when Castro's government was indeed swamped with settling its revolution down, fighting off US meddling, and charting a new and unprecedented course for the country, certainly not a time when anything but the standard fare for homosexuals would have done. Hell, gays can't even serve openly in America's military to-fucking-day, let alone 50 years ago. And how were gays treated in America in the 1960's? Ask Mathew Shepard, oh wait, you can't ask him, he's dead, beaten to death and hung on a fence in Wyoming because he was gay.

Castro's government did the convenient thing, they directed that instead of serving their obligatory two years in the armed forces, gays would go to a camp, a camp with all the usual accouterments of military life except there were no guns, and put through some kind of educational/work program in a misguided attempt to wean them off their homosexuality. And has already been reported in this thread, many who attended these camps reported that life in them was a lot better than serving in the army.

And when asked about it 50 years on Castro did not dodge the question nor make excuses, he copped to it having been a mistake and he apologized for it. I wish to hell we had even one politician in America with those kinds of balls an that kind of honesty and integrity, just one!

It has been further reported in the thread that Cuba has managed to forge great progress in the manner that homosexality is treated in that country. I myself have seen gay musicians and dancers openly performing in Cuba in public places and entertainment venues. And yet in America the gay community is under almost continuous attack from homophobic right wing extremsists and Christian evangelicals, exemplified by the savage murder of Mathew Shepard. And gays still cannot serve openly in the armed forces.

I don't think the US has any lessons for Cuba today in the manner of treating its homosexual community nor did it have in the 1960's.

If you think throwing a bunch of demonizing hoopla from the NY Times is going to change what I know from direct, on the ground, first-hand experience in Cuba, I have another thought for you: It won't. It won't even come close.

Now, all that said, one last point: There have been a number of threads in which the current economic miasma in America and the manner in which America's middle class is under seige and collapsing, with 15 million Americans in search of work they cannot find and four million of them having lost their homes to foreclosure, has been the topic of discussion. I have yet to see you show your face in any of those threads and express sympathy or even empathy for your fellow citizens, millions of whom are suffering the heavy blows of unemployment and no health insurance and homelessness. Not one word from you about the plight of your own countrymen. Not one!

Hence, your claims of caring about the well being of Cuban homosexuals strikes me as being disingenuous at best, downright dishonest at worst. If you don't care about the well being of your own fellow citizens how can we believe that you care about Cubans? I don't think we can, and i don't, not for a minute.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#23  Postby shh » Sep 01, 2010 3:03 am

Dr. Kwaltz wrote:I think Castro feels the end is near and wants to "secure" a place in heaven.....

I think that's unlikely since he's an atheist.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#24  Postby andyx1205 » Sep 01, 2010 4:23 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
HughMcB wrote:I for one am glad that someone is able to admit their mistakes


Mistake? Mistake? How in the name of Jesus's holy COCK can throwing thousands of people into concentration camps for being gay ever be classified as a "mistake"? Since when can saying sorry ever absolve someone of a crime against humanity of that scale?

What next? Nazi commandant: "Sorry we gassed your parents, bit of a faux pas that!"

I don't ever say this, but that is a very anti-Semitic post. How dare you compare concentration camps with extermination camps.

Castro did not commit genocide, he was instead involved in an immoral situation to which he has accepted responsibility. I've still to hear of an apology by the Americans regarding the genocide they committed in Vietnam.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#25  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Sep 01, 2010 4:44 am

shh wrote:
Dr. Kwaltz wrote:I think Castro feels the end is near and wants to "secure" a place in heaven.....

I think that's unlikely since he's an atheist.

Very unlikely indeed. :naughty:
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#26  Postby FACT-MAN-2 » Sep 01, 2010 4:51 am

andyx1205 wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:
HughMcB wrote:I for one am glad that someone is able to admit their mistakes

Mistake? Mistake? How in the name of Jesus's holy COCK can throwing thousands of people into concentration camps for being gay ever be classified as a "mistake"? Since when can saying sorry ever absolve someone of a crime against humanity of that scale?

What next? Nazi commandant: "Sorry we gassed your parents, bit of a faux pas that!"

I don't ever say this, but that is a very anti-Semitic post. How dare you compare concentration camps with extermination camps.

Castro did not commit genocide, he was instead involved in an immoral situation to which he has accepted responsibility. I've still to hear of an apology by the Americans regarding the genocide they committed in Vietnam.

And you never will, either.

In fact, SD, as a leading spokesperson in the forum for all that's right and good about America, will probably come back and argue that the US didn't commit genocide in Vietnam, even in the face of mountains of facts and evidence to the contrary.

Hell, he thinks an army barracks in Cuba is an extermination camp, a place where crimes against humanity are perpetrated, how could he possibly accept the notion that we committed genocide in Nammy? The chasm of this disconnect is just too wide. :o
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#27  Postby chairman bill » Sep 01, 2010 9:05 am

Just one thing - SD isn't USAian, nor does he live in the USA. And I agree with him (yeah, I know, unbelievable) that concentration camps for homosexuals is beyond the Pale, and a late apology doesn't really make amends. Of course, he's completely missed the point, once again, and has taken an opportunity to go off on an anti-lefty rant. The nature of the beast it would seem.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#28  Postby Count Otto Black » Sep 01, 2010 9:23 am

estrellas wrote:It doesn't sound like he's really apologizing for it. He's basically saying "I don't think I did this, but if you're upset, I'm sorry." I hear that sort of half-assed apology coming from 5 year olds all the time.


Exactly my take on it too. Castro's obviously aware of how homophobia will make his country look on the world stage and is trying to take away one stick with which his critics can beat him. Fair enough. The 60's were a different time with different attitudes - that's the peril of putting yourself in charge for a long period. But why be so mealy-mouthed about it? Why not just come out (no pun intended) and say "we actually got this one wrong - sorry guys" without all of the "I always loved teh gheys. Who do you think designed all my natty combat gear?" business.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#29  Postby chairman bill » Sep 01, 2010 9:37 am

Does anyone here have a straightforward translation from the interview with the Mexican newspaper? I just find it hard to trust a Miami-based publication to provide an unbiased account of anything to do with Cuba.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#30  Postby Strontium Dog » Sep 01, 2010 9:41 am

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:I didn't think you'd make the effort to go find the meaning of the term "Crime against humanity," so here, I did it for you:

From: http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/C/CrimesAgainstHumanity.aspx


Crimes Against Humanity: An international criminal justice offence; the perpetration of [u]acts of war[/i] upon a civilian, non-soldier population --

A term used by, within and as so defined by the International Criminal Court treaty and including any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

•Murder;
•Extermination;
•Enslavement;
•Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
•Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
•Torture;
•Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
•Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender, (...) or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law (...)
•Enforced disappearance of persons;
•The crime of apartheid;
•Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.


Nothing that happened in Cuba in the 1960's satisfies these criteria, so your cavalier and undiciplined use of language is duly noted. Not that it's anything new, mind you. :yuk:


Are you fucking kidding me? What you just posted proves beyond any doubt that I am right. The imprisonment of homosexuals for being homosexual satisfies AT LEAST two of the criteria above, if not more: Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law and Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender, (...) or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law.

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:Likewise, I become ill at your constant badgering of Cuba's revolution. You aren't as concerned about the well being of Cubans as you are just flat pissed off that a people's revolution has succeeded and has done so against all odds. That's your angst. It shines like a supernova in the subtext of all you write about Cuba.


Pure unadulterated bullshit. While I would undoubtedly agree that it takes a peculiar psychosis to view the disaster of the Castro regime as a success, this isn't about that. Shame on you for reducing the persecution of homosexuals to a footnote in your ideological battle.

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:I have been to Cuba, several times as a matter of fact. I've spent a good deal of time there, gotten to know its people and the conditions in which they live. You haven't ... because in your land of the free you are not free to do so, ha, ha, ha. The joke's on you, buster.


I'm British. Your powers of observation are as strong as ever, I see.

FACT-MAN-2 wrote:Hence, your claims of caring about the well being of Cuban homosexuals strikes me as being disingenuous at best, downright dishonest at worst. If you don't care about the well being of your own fellow citizens how can we believe that you care about Cubans? I don't think we can, and i don't, not for a minute.


An absolute disgrace of a post. I can see there is literally nothing you won't justify in the name of defending Cuba.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#31  Postby Strontium Dog » Sep 01, 2010 9:51 am

andyx1205 wrote:I don't ever say this, but that is a very anti-Semitic post. How dare you compare concentration camps with extermination camps.


Your post is hilarious on so many levels, I don't know where to start. To avoid embarrassing you any further, let's just forget you posted it, hey?

chairman bill wrote:Just one thing - SD isn't USAian, nor does he live in the USA. And I agree with him (yeah, I know, unbelievable) that concentration camps for homosexuals is beyond the Pale, and a late apology doesn't really make amends. Of course, he's completely missed the point, once again, and has taken an opportunity to go off on an anti-lefty rant. The nature of the beast it would seem.


No no no no no no no.

This isn't about an "anti-lefty" rant. In this instance I don't CARE whether Castro is left, right, up, down, diagonal or whatever. This is about his role in imprisoning gay people in concentration camps.

To my mind, you CANNOT justify such measures under ANY circumstances. There is a repeated failure from ideological dogmatists on the far left and right to understand that criticism of brutal dictatorships can actually be criticism for its own sake, rather than some kind of excuse to advance a political agenda.

I'm not Fact-Man. I don't have "my dictators" whose actions I defend at all costs and "your dictators" that I oppose with every fibre of my being. Every dictator who persecutes a minority will find an enemy in me, irrespective of whether they are socialist or fascist.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#32  Postby Count Otto Black » Sep 01, 2010 9:57 am

chairman bill wrote:Does anyone here have a straightforward translation from the interview with the Mexican newspaper? I just find it hard to trust a Miami-based publication to provide an unbiased account of anything to do with Cuba.


Fair point.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#33  Postby Paul G » Sep 01, 2010 10:01 am

I'm with SD on this one.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#34  Postby Hugin » Sep 01, 2010 10:12 am

I've long observed that many socialists are willing to defend authoritarian regimes if they are of the "right" tribe.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#35  Postby chairman bill » Sep 01, 2010 10:16 am

Strontium Dog wrote:... To my mind, you CANNOT justify such measures under ANY circumstances. ... Every dictator who persecutes a minority will find an enemy in me, irrespective of whether they are socialist or fascist.


Oh shit. This agreeing with SD business is getting worrying
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#36  Postby babel » Sep 01, 2010 10:35 am

His apology changes nothing. Not in terms of responsibility nor in terms of atrocity, but it is quite remarkable to have a mea culpa from one of the responsibles, without him being on trial.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#37  Postby Paul G » Sep 01, 2010 11:17 am

Hugin wrote:I've long observed that many socialists are willing to defend authoritarian regimes if they are of the "right" tribe.


You're 21.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#38  Postby andyx1205 » Sep 01, 2010 12:09 pm

Why the fuck did you ignore my post? Just admit it, you screwed up when you tried to trivialize the Holocaust.

Labour camps / concentration camps should be fully condemned. While condemning Castro, we should also take his apology into consideration.

The treatment of homosexuals in the past Cuba =/ gassing 6 million Jews + others.
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#39  Postby Strontium Dog » Sep 01, 2010 12:23 pm

andyx1205 wrote:Why the fuck did you ignore my post? Just admit it, you screwed up when you tried to trivialize the Holocaust.


Who tried to trivialise the Holocaust? I was merely asking whether we would accept a straightforward apology decades after the fact from those who perpetrated other atrocities
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Re: Fidel Castro Accepts Responsibility For Persecution Of G

#40  Postby Count Otto Black » Sep 01, 2010 12:34 pm

andyx1205 wrote:While condemning Castro, we should also take his apology into consideration.


What apology? According to the article he was caught with his pants down re the whole concentration camp debacle and said he was really busy with other stuff at the time so couldn't be expected to notice every little detail. And just what are the repercussions for a dictator who admits something like this? None. He's not even accountable. Is anyone being held accountable for this little hiccup?
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