http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16821650

Former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive Fred Goodwin has lost his knighthood.

Mr Goodwin, who was heavily criticised over his role in the bank's near collapse in 2008, was given the honour by the Labour government in 2004.

He has had his title cancelled and annulled by the Queen, following advice provided by Whitehall officials.

In the past, honours have only been taken away from people convicted of a serious crime or struck off.

Mr Goodwin oversaw the multi-billion-pound deal to buy Dutch rival ABN Amro at the height of the financial crisis in 2007, which led to RBS having to be bailed out to the tune of £45bn by taxpayers.

The right decision I suppose, inasmuch as it makes a difference to anything except distracting the media from the row over current bankers' bonus. I suppose it risks triggering a mass exodus of our most talented figures in the financial services sector to other monarchies around the globe hoping to be made knights elsewhere, crippling our GDP.

What about all the other people connected with the financial crisis, currently still honoured? It's not as if this can possibly be just a cheap populist scape-goating or anything

Goodwin was stripped of his knighthood for crimes against Capitalism, but what about people like Lord Archer of Western-Super-Mare? He was censured by the law and convicted and imprisoned and apparently this does not bring the honours system into disrepute as Goodwin is supposed to have done.

I'm sure Goodwin's £2m pa pension will ease the pain of his public dishonour. And besides, it will keep the news of Cameron's U-turn on blocking a new EU treaty on financial regulation and support for the Euro off the front pages tomorrow.

Err, so what?
Who the fuck cares if some wanker cannot call himself Sir anymore?
Yeah, that's something that's really big news/sarcasm.
Now actually holding him responsible and punishing him for his actions, that would be news.

But... but... but... he's been dishonoured. Surely a fate worse thatn death.

It'll make it more difficult to get the best restaurant reservations, for one thing.

This probably doesn't do justice to the discussion, but:

'Right', said Fred, climbing down the ladder, 'this 'ere gong is gonna have to go...'

ED209 wrote:... It's not as if this can possibly be just a cheap populist scape-goating or anything

Ooh, you won't catch me being all cynical like that.

THWOTH wrote:Goodwin was stripped of his knighthood for crimes against Capitalism, but what about people like Lord Archer of Western-Super-Mare? He was censured by the law and convicted and imprisoned and apparently this does not bring the honours system into disrepute as Goodwin is supposed to have done.

Apples and oranges. Lord Archer is not a knight, he's a peer of the realm. There is no law at present that allows peers to be stripped of their title. I would hope and expect that such a provision would be included in the impending proposals for House of Lords reform.

chairman bill wrote:Ooh, you won't catch me being all cynical like that.

If only Labour hadn't given him a knighthood in the first place, the opportunity for this so-called populist measure (or as we refer to it around here, "doing the right thing") wouldn't have presented itself.

ED209 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16821650

Former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive Fred Goodwin has lost his knighthood.

Mr Goodwin, who was heavily criticised over his role in the bank's near collapse in 2008, was given the honour by the Labour government in 2004.

He has had his title cancelled and annulled by the Queen, following advice provided by Whitehall officials.

In the past, honours have only been taken away from people convicted of a serious crime or struck off.

Mr Goodwin oversaw the multi-billion-pound deal to buy Dutch rival ABN Amro at the height of the financial crisis in 2007, which led to RBS having to be bailed out to the tune of £45bn by taxpayers.

The right decision I suppose, inasmuch as it makes a difference to anything except distracting the media from the row over current bankers' bonus. I suppose it risks triggering a mass exodus of our most talented figures in the financial services sector to other monarchies around the globe hoping to be made knights elsewhere, crippling our GDP.

Good riddance.

What about all the other people connected with the financial crisis, currently still honoured? It's not as if this can possibly be just a cheap populist scape-goating or anything

They're next.

THWOTH wrote:Goodwin was stripped of his knighthood for crimes against Capitalism, but what about people like Lord Archer of Western-Super-Mare? He was censured by the law and convicted and imprisoned and apparently this does not bring the honours system into disrepute as Goodwin is supposed to have done.

I'm sure Goodwin's £2m pa pension will ease the pain of his public dishonour. And besides, it will keep the news of Cameron's U-turn on blocking a new EU treaty on financial regulation and support for the Euro off the front pages tomorrow.

Lordships are a lot harder to remove than knightships, as I understand. Edit: Or what SD said.

Personally I'd like to get rid of the entire system. But then I'm a filthy republican.

And yet their Lordships sit in the UK's second chamber.

Honors system in disrepute?

Well he's more or less flushed down the toilet any continued career aspirations he may have had. Let's face it, if you saw his CV cross your desk in Personnel, would you do anything other than file it under WPB?

A man who effectively wrote his own pay cheques, and flushed the UK economy down the toilet hard whilst doing so, requiring his bank to become in effect a nationalised institution in order to survive, is hardly going to be top of the 'wish list' for any head hunters. Indeed, his very name is going to be regarded as utterly toxic for decades to come, and any plans he may have had of slipping into a comfortable non-executive directorship, to top up his mega-pension and fuel fond dreams of retirement to a gin palace in Monte Carlo, have well and truly turned to ashes, because virtually every share listed company on the planet will regard his appearance on their staff lists as the publicity equivalent of Sarin nerve gas.

Though with the mega-pension deal he brokered for himself, I don't suppose he's that worried. After all, when you've secured yourself the sort of golden parachute he has, you don't live on the same planet as the rest of us plebs, do you? Your biggest worry is what colour Bentley to order this year. I bet the thousands who lost their jobs as a result of his playing stockbroker roulette, wish they had access to just one per cent of his income.

How could the honours system get any more into disrepute.

The citation for 99% of those honoured should read "for services to thine own back pocket".

Bertrand, Earl of Russell, said that the advantage of his title lay in securing hotel rooms. Fred will now have to fall back on his money; a soft landing.

Apples and oranges. Lord Archer is not a knight, he's a peer of the realm. There is no law at present that allows peers to be stripped of their title. I would hope and expect that such a provision would be included in the impending proposals for House of Lords reform.

I would hope so.

I'm not entirely comfortable with removing this knighthood given it was awarded before everything fell to bits wasn't it? Its essentially being removed for him being crap at his job (Honours can be revoked in the case of criminal conviction but thats not the case here) after the period where he was supposedly good enough at his job to be honoured. Perhaps this is a case for honours being reserved for efforts which serve the wider community in some manner rather than just being perceived as doing your job well.

As for the repute of the system itself, it would be nice to perhaps see less of the well connected getting gongs and more focus on serving others etc. On the whole though i personally like a system of recognition on a national level that got solid foundation and is widely recognised.

Jumbo wrote:

Apples and oranges. Lord Archer is not a knight, he's a peer of the realm. There is no law at present that allows peers to be stripped of their title. I would hope and expect that such a provision would be included in the impending proposals for House of Lords reform.

I would hope so.

I'm not entirely comfortable with removing this knighthood given it was awarded before everything fell to bits wasn't it? Its essentially being removed for him being crap at his job (Honours can be revoked in the case of criminal conviction but thats not the case here) after the period where he was supposedly good enough at his job to be honoured. Perhaps this is a case for honours being reserved for efforts which serve the wider community in some manner rather than just being perceived as doing your job well.

Criminal conviction and also censure by a professional body, which is the case here. Technically though, I think the queen can do what the fuck she wants, the committee only make recommendations. Robert Mugabe was knighted in 1994 (!) and de-knighted in 2008 without the involvement of the CPS or FSA.

Jumbo wrote:As for the repute of the system itself, it would be nice to perhaps see less of the well connected getting gongs and more focus on serving others etc. On the whole though i personally like a system of recognition on a national level that got solid foundation and is widely recognised.

I don't see any value or relevance to any of it, personally. It's just back-slapping for, as you say, well-connected members of PLC boards and also the odd lollipop lady who is included so we can all say gawd bless 'er.

Hmm, here is a full list of 2012 New Year honour recipients.

Imagine my surprise when, upon checking, I didn't see the claimed litany of PLC board members, but a list of people predominantly honoured for long and dedicated service to worthy things such as charity, science, politics, the arts and education.

Clearly an oversight on my part. Presumably the "real" list is hidden elsewhere?

...and Gawd bless 'em, every one!

Criminal conviction and also censure by a professional body, which is the case here.

The FSA report criticsed him heavily but i'm not sure thats actually a censure though. Seeing the word professional in the same context as the FSA is quite amusing.

Imagine my surprise when, upon checking, I didn't see the claimed litany of PLC board members, but a list of people predominantly honoured for long and dedicated service to worthy things such as charity, science, politics, the arts and education.

Indeed. In the scientific field people like Roger Penrose and Stephen Hawking have been past recipients of honours of various levels and there are many others who have received well earned recognition. If the amount of M.B.E = my bloody effort and O.B.E = other buggers effort can be reduced then that would be ideal.

What is actually wrong with some form of national level of awards? Most countries have similar. The US awards people a variety of medals and the like as do the French and many other European nations. (Some of those also grant Knighthoods or the equivalent). I personally prefer that to the alternatives which seem to be some awful lump of perspex sponsored by a tabloid paper or a Blue Peter badge and a slap on the back.