French Protests

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French Protests

#1  Postby willhud9 » Dec 03, 2018 5:05 am

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/02/europe/france-fuel-protests-violence-intl/index.html

I see news stories like this and I have to wonder several things:

A) Do the protestors have a legitimate grievance?
B) Is their grievance enough to get violent over?
C) Do people really have no lives but to join legitimate protests and troll with violent actions?
D) If Europe had access to guns like the USA y'all would be fucked (not implying we are not also fucked). :shock:

In reference to my first rhetorical question:

I am currently paying about 0.60 USD per liter for unleaded gasoline in my home county in Virginia. It takes roughly 38 liters to fill my car to full so about 22.00 USD for a full engine. I don't know how much it is in France, if any of my French friends here can inform me that'd be appreciated. :cheers:

Just trying to understand the situation and the emotions.
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Re: French Protests

#2  Postby zulumoose » Dec 03, 2018 5:58 am

I am currently paying about 0.60 USD per liter for unleaded gasoline in my home county in Virginia. It takes roughly 38 liters to fill my car to full so about 22.00 USD for a full engine


To put into perspective how cheap this is, it costs about R700 to put 42l in my son's car.
He is a student, and has just got his first job, as a waiter at a family restaurant.
His salary and tips combined for a 12 hour shift averages about R300. His first 4 days were unpaid training.
A typical dish at this restaurant is R80, compared to R40 for a Big Mac medium meal including fries and drink.

His hourly basic rate would not even buy ONE litre of fuel, which is what it would take to get him home.
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Re: French Protests

#3  Postby Animavore » Dec 03, 2018 6:11 am

willhud9 wrote:A) Do the protestors have a legitimate grievance?


If they believe they have then yes.

willhud9 wrote:B) Is their grievance enough to get violent over?


The Dutch once killed and ate one of their government officials during protest. This is rather tame in comparison.

willhud9 wrote:C) Do people really have no lives but to join legitimate protests and troll with violent actions?


Rather loaded question. I don't think this is unique to France.

willhud9 wrote:D) If Europe had access to guns like the USA y'all would be fucked (not implying we are not also fucked).


Having guns isn't helping you at all. Trump is still in the White House. You still have an undemocratic, minority government in power. What happened to the whole idea that your right to bear arms was to overthrow a tyrannical government?

When French people protest things tend to get done. No guns needed. I don't even think they use guillotines any more.

Also France =/= Europe.
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Re: French Protests

#4  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 03, 2018 6:49 am

What's SoE?
There probably are people with legitimate grievances but from what I've seen in the news theres also people protesting from a vague feeling of unrest that cant seem to articulate what specifically is wrong with the current government and people who have co-opted the protests to riot for the sake of rioting. I have no idea how large each subgroup is though.
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Re: French Protests

#5  Postby Hermit » Dec 03, 2018 6:58 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:What's SoE?

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Re: French Protests

#6  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 03, 2018 7:04 am

Animavore wrote:What happened to the whole idea that your right to bear arms was to overthrow a tyrannical government?


What are you smoking this morning? I get the whole irony thing, but this kind of stuff ended in oh, maybe the eighteenth century. Really, the way to overthrow a tyrannical government is to secede from the union. Oh, wait. Somebody tried that, too.

The French actually tried a serious protest once. They got rid of the monarchy, but lost their heads, and ended up with Napoleon Bonaparte.
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Re: French Protests

#7  Postby willhud9 » Dec 03, 2018 8:44 am

Animavore wrote:
willhud9 wrote:A) Do the protestors have a legitimate grievance?


If they believe they have then yes.


Nice vague answer. Was genuinely asking a question from my European friends here. I don’t know enough about European taxes to know if they are crippling rural townsfolk or if this is just a fringe group protesting.

willhud9 wrote:B) Is their grievance enough to get violent over?


The Dutch once killed and ate one of their government officials during protest. This is rather tame in comparison.


And yet the severity of that kind of protest is not at all common here in the US, at least as that large a level.

willhud9 wrote:C) Do people really have no lives but to join legitimate protests and troll with violent actions?


Rather loaded question. I don't think this is unique to France.


My question wasn’t addressed to France alone here. Just the idea that there are people in the world who are that mean-spirited and violent baffles me.

willhud9 wrote:D) If Europe had access to guns like the USA y'all would be fucked (not implying we are not also fucked).


Having guns isn't helping you at all. Trump is still in the White House. You still have an undemocratic, minority government in power. What happened to the whole idea that your right to bear arms was to overthrow a tyrannical government?


I’m afraid you misunderstood my point. You have people being excessively violent over this issue. If France had availability to firearms like the US it scares me to think how much gun crime France would actually have.

To me it’s a sign that reducing availability of guns is a good thing because despite injuries there have been no deaths from the protests.

When French people protest things tend to get done. No guns needed. I don't even think they use guillotines any more.


No they just vandalize people’s property and burn cars. Because viva la France.

Also France =/= Europe.


Never implied it did. :dunno:
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Re: French Protests

#8  Postby Animavore » Dec 03, 2018 8:57 am

willhud9 wrote:
Never implied it did.


You said if Europe had guns we'd be fucked, but France has a particular notoriety when it comes to protests.

You wouldn't really see it in Ireland or Germany (not that riots have never happened, they're just not common). Also gun laws aren't decided by the EU anyway, they are done at local levels, so some EU member states, like the Czech Republic, have gun laws as lax as the US, but without the massive issues.
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Re: French Protests

#9  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 03, 2018 11:19 am

The French protest at a drop of a hat and they always have but this time the hard core right wing is stirring things up. Le Pen called for protest against anything. Normal protestors dont rampage and loot shops.

BTW French pay 20 €cents less for petrol than we do (well those with cars). They still also have the best pension conditions.
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Re: French Protests

#10  Postby Alan B » Dec 03, 2018 12:26 pm

OK. But how much do they actually pay per litre and how much is Macron's increase?
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Re: French Protests

#11  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 03, 2018 1:29 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:The French protest at a drop of a hat and they always have but this time the hard core right wing is stirring things up. Le Pen called for protest against anything. Normal protestors dont rampage and loot shops.

BTW French pay 20 €cents less for petrol than we do (well those with cars). They still also have the best pension conditions.

For the current pensioners, for future generations they're going to be in even worse shit than we will if they don't reform the system.
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Re: French Protests

#12  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 03, 2018 1:42 pm

I dont disagree with that.
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Re: French Protests

#13  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 03, 2018 1:46 pm

Only some (perhaps even a small minority?) of the protestors are actually protesting about Macron's "Green Tax" on fuel according to the BBC article - many are protesting at financial inequality in general, approximating Occupy Wall Street a la mode. The yellow jacket thing may purely be a unifying symbol rather than a defining policy complaint.
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Re: French Protests

#14  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 03, 2018 1:56 pm

Well everyone who has a car has one as it is part of the emergency kit you are supposed to have with you.
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Re: French Protests

#15  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 03, 2018 1:59 pm

Also, the "Green Tax" protestors are reported to be objecting to Macron implying they're "stupid" by attempting to manipulate the electorate into having smaller carbon footprints, and thereby implying they're not doing their damndest already. The practical implications of the increased cost of fuel may be entirely irrelevant for the protestors. :dunno:
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Re: French Protests

#16  Postby laklak » Dec 03, 2018 2:50 pm

According to teh Interwebz the price of petrol in France it E1.43 / L, which comes out to about $6.20 per U.S. gallon. I paid $2.11 a gallon yesterday. At that price I certainly wouldn't be driving a pick up truck, it would take over $140 to fill it from empty. Diesel was about the same price, filling that boat would cost $2500. Fuck me.
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Re: French Protests

#17  Postby Animavore » Dec 03, 2018 2:58 pm

We don't have cars as inefficient and fuel consuming as yours. €20 at that price goes far. It's the same price in Ireland.

The engine sizes are ridiculous in the States. 6 litre engines and stuff!
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Re: French Protests

#18  Postby Ironclad » Dec 03, 2018 3:10 pm

Distances are vast in the USA though, so what's more efficient, a 6L behemoth or a 1L Italian fairy car on a trip?
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Re: French Protests

#19  Postby Scot Dutchy » Dec 03, 2018 3:16 pm

For most Americans if they were honest The 1litre job would do the job easily. Something called "keeping up with the Jones's" plays a role here. Prick rating on the 1 litre job is non existent.
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Re: French Protests

#20  Postby Animavore » Dec 03, 2018 3:21 pm

Ironclad wrote:Distances are vast in the USA though, so what's more efficient, a 6L behemoth or a 1L Italian fairy car on a trip?


Depends. Larger engines are associated with more power. Faster driving. Better at pulling heavy loads. So they burn fuel quicker and you're not really going to get more miles out of it.

Modern engines also make older rules of thumb more blurred. It's not as clear cut as it used to be.


American men, though, have a whole macho culture thing associated with cars many other countries don't have which may prevent them getting a 'weedy' smaller car (environmentalism is also viewed negatively) which they may associate with women and preventing them from sensible choices.
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