Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1541  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 8:44 am

purplerat wrote:Well golly-gee-willikers, color me surprised that Mike would think anti-gay sources are excellent.

Or maybe this is just another red herring :whistle:


Mike is not endorsing that. He's just willing to overlook it and applaud anyway, because the article takes aim at something he dislikes. My enemy's enemy is my friend, etc.

Not that separately, the analysis of feminism in the article is balanced anyway. It isn't, but hey. We don't mind a bit of skew when it's leaning in our preferred direction.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1542  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 8:52 am

Conservatives have taken strategic and focused aim at colleges because colleges are not Conservative. Conservatives have a well-funded campaign which is McCarthyist in essence. They exaggerate and misrepresent. That's the underlying theme here. But Mike has no interest in deconstructing that. No, he's happy to applaud. Let's only look for underlying messages when it suits us. Let's be biased in our analysis. After all, we're only trying to be rational skeptics.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1543  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 8:57 am

Mike, this isn't an anti-feminism thread or even an anti-radical feminism thread. Get off your hobbyhorse.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1544  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Feb 11, 2019 9:06 am

Why do people believe that, because CHS refers to herself as a feminist and everyone else as extreme, that she's a representation of any kind of feminism? :lol:
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1545  Postby Mike_L » Feb 11, 2019 9:07 am

archibald wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
archibald wrote:
Mike_L wrote:I have little doubt that the majority of members on this forum will be opposed to the main points. But to dismiss it as "racist", "sexist", "anti-gay" etc. without even having read the bulk of the content, is plain lazy, IMO.


True. It's hogwash in other ways too.

Mike, I get that you have an issue with certain forms of radical Feminism. Actually, I do too. But I'm not about to applaud bilge propaganda in the opposite direction that is just as bad, just because it's the 'enemy of my enemy' so to speak. Two wrongs don't make a right. That article is appalling. Please stop applauding it just because you have a valid problem with some forms of radical feminism.

I appreciate that you read it, and I respect that you don't value it the way I do. No problem. :thumbup:


You go ahead and value it Mike. Tell us how excellent you think it is.

Done that already. Take it or leave it, don't moan about it. I've already said that I respect your opinion.

Don't look for the flaws in it. Only do that for things that you don't like.

Never said it's flawless. But the plus-points are sufficient, IMO, to qualify it as "excellent". Note the "IMO" there. You're not compelled to agree with me. Really, you're not.

And then derail a thread about them.

It's a tangential point, not a derail. The creator of the Gillette "ad" is a feminist.

Be inconsistent why don't you?

My position has been consistent for the entirety of the thread.

archibald wrote:
purplerat wrote:Well golly-gee-willikers, color me surprised that Mike would think anti-gay sources are excellent.

Or maybe this is just another red herring :whistle:


Mile is not endorsing that. He's just willing to overlook it and applaud anyway, because the article takes aim at something he dislikes. My enemy's enemy is my friend, etc.

I could make the counter-claim that you're placing inordinate emphasis on something not even contained in the main article itself (it's on a page in a linked website... just one of many linked websites).

Not that separately, the analysis of feminism in the article is balanced anyway, but hey. We don't mind a bit of skew when it's leaning in our preferred direction.

We all have our biases / leanings.

archibald wrote:Conservatives have taken strategic and focused aim at colleges because colleges are not Conservative. Conservatives have a well-funded campaign which is McCarthyist in essence. They exaggerate and misrepresent. That's the underlying theme here. But Mike has no interest in deconstructing that. No, he's happy to applaud. Let's only look for underlying messages when it suits us. Let's be biased in our analysis. After all, we're only trying to be rational skeptics.

Conservatives are entitled to express their opinions on campuses and elsewhere, provided that they don't engage in hate speech.


Edit:
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1546  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:07 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Why do people believe that, because CHS refers to herself as a feminist and everyone else as extreme, that she's a representation of any kind of feminism? :lol:


Because, like it or not, she is.

But can we get back to toxic masculinity at some point?
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1547  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:08 am

Mike_L wrote:Conservatives are entitled to express their opinions on campuses and elsewhere, provided that they don't engage in hate speech.


'Conservatives are entitled' and 'that article is excellent' are two different degrees of validity. You opted for the latter conclusion, so at least just stick with that and stop watering it down. I'm not doing that article because it's manure of the smelliest kind, it's politically-motivated propaganda, even if there is a fair point or two that could be extracted. Ideally, in another thread.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1548  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:14 am

Mike_L wrote:I've already said that I respect your opinion.


Well I don't respect what you're doing, even if I do agree with you about certain things. Get off your hobbyhorse. More importantly, try to be balanced. Don't just clap your hands at something because it suits your agenda about something, in this case something that is arguably not central to the OP.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1549  Postby Mike_L » Feb 11, 2019 9:20 am

archibald wrote:
Mike_L wrote:I've already said that I respect your opinion.


Well I don't respect what you're doing, even if I do agree with you about certain things. Get off your hobbyhorse. More importantly, try to be balanced. Don't just clap your hands at something because it suits your agenda about something, in this case something that is arguably not central to the OP.

I'd be happy to leave it where it stands... I've made my main points. You disagree, and that's okay.
You've stated your objections and I've noted them.
By all means, take the thread back to the Gillette ad. :thumbup:
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1550  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Feb 11, 2019 9:22 am

archibald wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Why do people believe that, because CHS refers to herself as a feminist and everyone else as extreme, that she's a representation of any kind of feminism? :lol:


Because, like it or not, she is.


I've never heard her advocate for or support a single. Her works are all cater to the Mikes of the world, dismissing the concerns of women as silly and unreasonable.

Nothing to do with my personal likes or dislikes. I've seen a lot of her and she's never espoused a feminist viewpoint.

If she secretly does advocate for and support efforts to accomplish anything for the empowerment of women, I haven't seen or heard it from her.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1551  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:25 am

It's doubtful anyone even wants to take the thread back to what might be considered the main topic, toxic masculinity, and what might be usefully done to address it. I'm not even sure I do. It's much more fun to take up opposing sides and have a ding-dong. It always is. Then we get to tease people about having fee fees and being anti-gay and stuff. Later, if all else fails, we could do spelling and grammar. That's always a failsafe. :)

Anyhows, I'm not in charge of what direction the thread goes. If it veers a certain direction, I might even join in, as I am about to do.....
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1552  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:26 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I've never heard her advocate for or support a single. Her works are all cater to the Mikes of the world, dismissing the concerns of women as silly and unreasonable.

Nothing to do with my personal likes or dislikes. I've seen a lot of her and she's never espoused a feminist viewpoint.

If she secretly does advocate for and support efforts to accomplish anything for the empowerment of women, I haven't seen or heard it from her.


I think she is a certain type of 'conservative feminist'. I don't agree with her about a lot of stuff, but I don't get to tell her she's not a feminist.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1553  Postby Mike_L » Feb 11, 2019 9:31 am

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:...the Mikes of the world...

:lol:

We are Legion! :dance:
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1554  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:32 am

Mike_L wrote:It's a tangential point, not a derail. The creator of the Gillette "ad" is a feminist.


Probs. And yes, it is a tangential point, not a derail. I'll give you that.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1555  Postby GrahamH » Feb 11, 2019 9:33 am

Mike_L wrote:Then again, leftists cry "Racism!" and "Sexism!" in response to anything and everything that momentarily creases their brows.

:lol: That's a funny coming from someone who has been crying "Racism!" and "Sexism!" throughout this topic. Does that make you a "leftist"?
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1556  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 9:36 am

Briefly back on topic. Yes, there's a prob with toxic masculinity and yes it would be nice and useful to do something about it. If companies selling something want to virtue-signal about it, there are arguably slightly better ways than Gillette opted for imo, but even then we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1557  Postby Mike_L » Feb 11, 2019 9:37 am

GrahamH wrote:
Mike_L wrote:Then again, leftists cry "Racism!" and "Sexism!" in response to anything and everything that momentarily creases their brows.

:lol: That's a funny coming from someone who has been crying "Racism!" and "Sexism!" throughout this topic. Does that make you a "leftist"?

It's all relative, I guess. There are many people in the world (even here in my hometown) who would view me as a leftist.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1558  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 10:03 am

Christina Hoff Summers thinks feminism is often too anti-men and writes a book entitled, 'the War on Boys'. Christina Hoff Summers has two sons and no daughters. Go figure. :)
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1559  Postby archibald » Feb 11, 2019 10:05 am

In all seriousness, studies have been done on this. Having sons is correlated with being less feminist than having daughters. See: mini-me's.

In other news, people's views on stuff derive from perceived self-interest. See also: many men's objections to feminism. See also: feminism.
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Re: Gillette faces backlash and boycott over '#MeToo advert'

#1560  Postby zoon » Feb 11, 2019 11:15 am

archibald wrote:In all seriousness, studies have been done on this. Having sons is correlated with being less feminist than having daughters. See: mini-me's.

In other news, people's views on stuff derive from perceived self-interest. See also: many men's objections to feminism. See also: feminism.

Perceived genetic self-interest, which is where it all gets complicated, since relatedness spreads outwards? - she's talking on behalf of her sons, not herself. Evolution by natural selection tends to produce individuals which look after their relatives' interests as well as their own, it's not just about selfishness.
Humans throw far more reciprocity into the mix than other animals, because reciprocity, the way humans do it, needs large brains, it means remembering who owes who what and how much. This seems to have evolved because it enables tighter cooperation, without cooperative altruists being taken for suckers and bred out of the population.
Equality is sometimes a useful way of cutting through the complicated maths, e.g. sharing equally (or nearly equally) after a hunt (which is characteristic of hunter-gatherers), or treating everyone equally before the law, which is at least nominally the case in many larger societies. From the evolutionary point of view, I don't think there's any way equality all the time could have evolved, but a reasonable degree of perceived equality, coupled with ongoing arguments about who's being unfairly treated, seems to be where humans are comfortable as group cooperators - hunter-gatherers are notably concerned to maintain a degree of equality, people trying to be the "big man" are regularly cut down to size. I suspect that more or less non-stop arguments about what is or is not fair are built into our unique form of cooperation?
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