Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#261  Postby chairman bill » Mar 01, 2012 12:29 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:The Trotskyites are the people who are still complaining about people doing work experience for benefits only, even when it's voluntary.


Oh, right. So the Cameronian definition of 'Trotskyite' has changed in accord with changes in government policy, called for by what were previously termed 'Troskyites' by Cameron? Well that makes sense.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#262  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Mar 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:...They already did keep their benefits, so long as they left their voluntary placement within the first week. Now they can leave at any time without incurring a penalty...

In theory. Reality can often be a different thing.

For example the jobcentre (or more likely outsourced) staff will often pretty heavily imply (or on occasion even state outright) that something is effectively mandatory when it isn't. Knowing full well that a large majority of people on benefits are inclined towards keeping their heads down and going along with whatever they are told. They also know full-well that most of these people will not question an unfair benefits sanction, simply because they don't realise that it's unfair to begin with.


On an unrelated note, does anyone else reckon that Cameron and Osborne have both probably been dying to get a chance to call someone a 'Trotskyite' on the public stage, ever since they were teenagers masturbating over their copies of Ayn Rand.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#263  Postby Strontium Dog » Mar 01, 2012 7:21 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:...They already did keep their benefits, so long as they left their voluntary placement within the first week. Now they can leave at any time without incurring a penalty...


In theory. Reality can often be a different thing.


Well, how's this for reality. Up to now, about 220 people who've gone on these placements have had their benefits withdrawn. Out of 300,000 who have attended the placements.
If a liberal party does something, then that act, by definition, is a liberal one. The only alternative is that they are not a liberal party.

Someone earning £1m pa will pay £381k more tax on their income under the coalition than under Labour
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#264  Postby Horwood Beer-Master » Mar 01, 2012 7:52 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:...They already did keep their benefits, so long as they left their voluntary placement within the first week. Now they can leave at any time without incurring a penalty...


In theory. Reality can often be a different thing.


Well, how's this for reality. Up to now, about 220 people who've gone on these placements have had their benefits withdrawn. Out of 300,000 who have attended the placements.

Wrong statistic.

The relevant second figure there would be the total number who had withdrawn from/refused a placement. Not the total number who have attended.


And even your first figure of 220 people being sanctioned may be misleading, as failure to attend the placement may not always be given as the official reason for the sanction, even when it is in effect why it is really being given.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#265  Postby laklak » Mar 01, 2012 8:36 pm

And here I thought a "Trotskyite" was someone who held that a peasant revolution would lead only to bourgeoisie capitalism, not socialism, and therefore a state of Perpetual International Revolution, led by the proletarian working classes in industrialized Europe, was necessary to bring true socialism to agrarian societies like Russia.

Silly me.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#266  Postby mrjonno » Mar 01, 2012 8:47 pm

Nah Trots are just far left politics who were no friends of Stalin (ie most European communists after WW2)
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#267  Postby laklak » Mar 01, 2012 9:08 pm

Either way you end up with an ice axe in the back of your head.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#268  Postby Jovan » Mar 02, 2012 11:13 pm

I'd just like to comment further on this, as all the talk from the media, and the Government, has been in the context of finding jobs, and "work experience", for the YOUNG unemployed. (To give them a chance of getting a foot on the ladder of employment, as it were.)
That's just a lie.
The reality is, this compulsory scheme, has been in place for all claimants, once they have been unemployed for 6 months (I think that may now have been reduced, to 16 weeks..?)
If A4E offer you such a 'placement', and if you turn it down, you will be 'sanctioned', by having benefits withdrawn.
(In practice, as claimants and their families, cannot be left destitute, after much pleading, and various visits, and getting angry, the benefits will, almost immediately, be reinstated, and the whole cycle begins again)

These placements are not at all "voluntary", nor are they restricted to the 'NEETS', as the govt spokespeople have been saying.
Middle aged men, in their 50's, have to attend any interview, which A4E finds for them.
In some cases, despite being told that the wages offered, are insufficient to cover the person's living costs, (mortgages, rents, 4 children etc,) they still have to attend, or they face sanctions. If they are offered a job, they have to accept it, however unsuitable, or they face 'sanctions'.
The same goes for any 'placements, where 55 year-old men are forced to work at menial tasks, full-time, for no money, other than the £67 (?) benefits, for up to 13 weeks.

The companies taking part, don't have to give any reason, for not offering them a job, at the end of it.
Why would they take them on, and have to pay them, when the next free labour, is already in the 'pipeline..?
If they get sacked for being "late", or any other form of 'misconduct', like refusing to clean toilets, or any other duty asked of them, etc. they lose their benefits.

About 50% of A4E's office staff, are such unpaid 'placements', the admin staff, the receptionists, the 'security staff', even some of the 'personal advisers'. Some very experienced, and capable staff, for free. It's little wonder Emma Harrison was able to pay herself that £8.6 Million Dividend.

To be fair, this scheme was begun under Labour, but with this latest exposure, and the controversy which it has created, this govt is now saying they've got "hundreds of smaller companies, keen to participate", -there's a surprise.

It's really very simple: do you want a succession of free employees? (note: adults, not just "inexperienced school-leavers", seeking their first job) .
The only 'rider', is that there does,( notionally), have to exist the possibility of a permanent job, but of course, it's "not your fault", if none of the applicants so far, have been deemed 'suitable'.
SO, potentially, free labour, indefinitely. -Tough call, for any business owner...

IMO., Anyone who's doing a full-time job, whether that's a temporary 'placement', or ''work experience', should be paid the statutory minimum wage, for the duration.(Regardless of age)
Otherwise, it's public money, paying for private profits.

Why should the nation be paying benefits, to someone who's working full-time at Tescos, collecting trolleys, for no pay.?
When Tesco, and others, are all very profitable companies, and can very well afford to pay their own wage bills..

Yes, it is mandatory slave labour, and it's a disgrace.
I hope it comes back to 'haunt' any company taking part.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#269  Postby quixotecoyote » Mar 03, 2012 2:54 am

If you could walk that back from "slave labour" to "unethical exploitation" I could get on board.

It's just not slavery.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#270  Postby Rick » Mar 03, 2012 3:06 am

The hospitality sector, particularly the larger hotels, are ever ready to promise hopeful youngsters ‘hotel management’ or ‘trainee manager’ jobs, employing them in reality as cheap menial labour.

The A4E Scheme looks similarly wide open to abuse - a handy political way of understating the true number of unemployed too of course.


I hope you’re not suggesting that some of our posters display Trotskyite-like inclinations, laklak.
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Re: Government Creates Slave Race in the UK

#271  Postby chairman bill » Mar 03, 2012 10:33 am

My job was replaced by a workfare placement
With the number of work experience placements rising, are we really to believe that there are no actual job vacancies?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/03/job-replaced-workfare-placement

... Everyone can agree that work experience and training are important and fulfilling, but they should not be to the benefit of exploitative businesses, designed to minimise cost and maximise profit. Surely it's worth questioning that there is now such a plethora of available work placements on a weekly basis: are we to believe that none of these could be converted to actual jobs? The system is just self-manufacturing biased and false success ...
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