kennyc wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

I never accused you.

I just pointed out that merely saying Shrunk is a psychiatrist is not a valid argument and is an appeal to authority if used.

Which it hasn't been, yet you twice directed a post at me, citing my words and using terms such as 'this' in reference to them followed by your claim.

So now you're saying that you're just acting as a handy local information board on what would be considered an argument from authority were someone to actually say it, which they actually haven't?

Ok, great.

Well Sendraks had. I was merely raising points of contention to your question. So what if Shrunk is a psychiatrist? That does not add more or less weight to his comments. Psychiatrists can be wrong about psychiatry and can be told they are wrong by common non-psychiatrists.

This is simply a goal post diversion from the issue of whether killing/murder/etc. can be considered signs of underlying mental illnesses.

Which is again exactly what I said about 'feeling free to get on topic'

purplerat wrote:

Jörmungandr wrote:As a proud owner of many really neat guns, I really have no problem with background checks, improving the existing background check system, expanding its scope to include mental illness, etc. I have no problem with the concept of being subject to background checks at gun shows.

Why stigmatize "mental illness" when there's little evidence that gun violence is linked to mental illness specifically?

Current federal law disqualifies individuals from purchasing or possessing a firearm if they have been: Involuntarily committed to inpatient psychiatric care (2) been deemed incompetent to mange their own affairs do to mental illness (3) found incompetent to stand trial or acquitted by reason of insanity.

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl was able to scare off a suspect -- later taken into custody -- during a home invasion in Lapeer County's North Branch Township.

(UPDATE: Police say 11-year-old girl used her own shotgun to scare off robbers in Lapeer County)

Deputies from the Lapeer County Sheriff's Department responded around 3:45 p.m. Friday, Jan. 30 to a Five Lakes Road home where the girl was home alone when a vehicle pulled into the driveway.

A Lapeer County Sheriff's Office news release states one person knocked on all the doors and forced their way inside the home when there was no response. The girl locked herself inside a bathroom and hid in a closet with a shotgun.

The suspect eventually opened the bathroom door and closet where the child was hiding with the weapon. The girl aimed the shotgun at the suspect, who then fled from the home.

Police said the girl was not harmed during the encounter.

...cont'd...

johnbrandt wrote:How come stories like this don't get the media attention they deserve?

Teague wrote:

Sendraks wrote:

Teague wrote: If you cannot differentiate between a soldier and a murderer, I'm not sure how we move forward from here.

I'm asking you to convince me that you can differentiate between the two. I am not convinced that you can, you're just assuming they must be different because it is convenient for your argument to do so.

Teague wrote: However, if a soldier murders another soldier on base for some petty revenge, we can converse around that as a possible or not mental health problem.

Converse around what?

1- that there was a mental health problem that led to them murdering someone
or
2 - that because they murdered someone they should be considered to have a mental health problem?

Teague wrote:Someone who plans out murder is completely different as they are solely responsible for their actions and are not in any danger of being killed by their victim. They'll plan when and where and how I imagine.

Your imaginings aside, all you're doing is projecting a very specific scenarios onto different individuals, to argue that they must be different. Do you honestly think that soldiers don't feel a sense responsbility for who they kill? I'm sure some don't and are able to say "they were only following orders" whereas others will be stuck at the point that it was their decision to pull the trigger and end another person's life.

And consider this as a murder scenario.
One individual murders someone, because that someone is a paedophile who sexually abused a relative of the murderer. For variousn reasons, the paedophile is now free, but the murderer is genuinely worried that other children are at risk and therefore takes the law into their own hands. They undertake the attack methodically, with every intention of not getting caught, because they think they are doing the right thing.

Are they mentally ill or just misguided?

No I was trying to point out that murder, if premeditated, is different to a soldier being in a conflict zone where it's his life or the other guy.

I think I argued exactly that soldiers feel remorse for killing, hence why I pointed out PTSD in an earlier post.

Your scenario, the murderer could be mentally ill but I'm out of time Will pick it up tomorrow

johnbrandt wrote:How come stories like this don't get the media attention they deserve?

or...is there an ulterior motive to being always seen to be showing guns in a bad light...?
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/02/11-year-old_child_uses_shotgun.html

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl was able to scare off a suspect -- later taken into custody -- during a home invasion in Lapeer County's North Branch Township.

(UPDATE: Police say 11-year-old girl used her own shotgun to scare off robbers in Lapeer County)

Deputies from the Lapeer County Sheriff's Department responded around 3:45 p.m. Friday, Jan. 30 to a Five Lakes Road home where the girl was home alone when a vehicle pulled into the driveway.

A Lapeer County Sheriff's Office news release states one person knocked on all the doors and forced their way inside the home when there was no response. The girl locked herself inside a bathroom and hid in a closet with a shotgun.

The suspect eventually opened the bathroom door and closet where the child was hiding with the weapon. The girl aimed the shotgun at the suspect, who then fled from the home.

Police said the girl was not harmed during the encounter.

...cont'd...

johnbrandt wrote:How come stories like this don't get the media attention they deserve?

Oldskeptic wrote:As for why that would be seen as an undue burden for private sellers to have to follow the same rules as licensed gun dealers, I can't say with any surety. But as I've said before I don't think any firearms should be allowed to change hands except through licensed gun dealers required to follow whatever state and local procedures have been established by law.

A person applies for a license.

A check, functionally identical to the one registered gun dealers perform at POS, is performed. If the check comes back clear, a license must be issued.

A database of all currently-valid license numbers (no names, addresses etc. just the numbers) is created with a publicly-accessible website. Anyone can check instantly whether a particular license number is valid, but nothing else. Personal information beyond this would require a warrant to retrieve. A unique "inquiry number" is also generated to verify that a check was made.

This, now verified, license number is then used in conjunction with the "inquiry number" as the basis for filling out a simple transfer of ownership form that can be printed out or perhaps done online.

Sendraks wrote:

johnbrandt wrote:How come stories like this don't get the media attention they deserve?

Because 11 year olds getting hold of shotguns is fucking horrific?
Because leaving 11 year olds home alone is pretty fucking appalling?

Just two thoughts off the top of my head.

Oldskeptic wrote:

purplerat wrote:

Jörmungandr wrote:As a proud owner of many really neat guns, I really have no problem with background checks, improving the existing background check system, expanding its scope to include mental illness, etc. I have no problem with the concept of being subject to background checks at gun shows.

Why stigmatize "mental illness" when there's little evidence that gun violence is linked to mental illness specifically?

Current federal law disqualifies individuals from purchasing or possessing a firearm if they have been: Involuntarily committed to inpatient psychiatric care (2) been deemed incompetent to mange their own affairs do to mental illness (3) found incompetent to stand trial or acquitted by reason of insanity.

That doesn't sound out of line to me. The Consortium for Risk-Based Firearm Policy recommends one change to the current federal law and that is to add involuntary outpatient commitment as a disqualifying factor if a court has found that there is likelihood of future danger of that person harming themselves or others.

Not just any diagnosis of mental illness should not disqualify someone from purchasing or possessing a gun, and under current federal law it doesn't. So, I can't see what all the fuss has been about.

Edited to add that by supreme court ruling involuntary commitment requires that the patient exhibit behavior that poses a danger to themselves and others.

Oldskeptic wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

Emmeline wrote:You can buy a gun at a yard sale?

Yep! Yard sales, garage sales, estate sales, or through classified news paper adds. The courts and or legislatures think it's an undue burden to require unlicensed gun sellers to conform to rules that licensed gun seller have to obey.

I noted earlier, OS, that in many (most?) states, you need a permit for a yard/garage sale. If this isn't an onerous burden, why is it to be seen as one roué for private sales of guns to be regulated?

From what I can tell the state's interest in permits to have yard/garage sales is collection of sales taxes that otherwise would not be paid. But it's the cities that decide on terms and issue the permits, and their interest is to limit the length and number of yard/garage sales so that people don't set up a regular business doing yard/garage sales in residential areas.

In one small town I lived in a couple of women set up a business like this and had yard sales every weekend. Their house was on a busy road leading to a national park so lots of tourist drove by on the weekends and holidays. One woman would go to a nearby larger city every weekend buying from other yard/garage sales while the other conducted the yard sale in my town.

Some locals objected because our town was zoned residential and did not issue business licenses at all. Rather than pass a law forbidding yard/garage sales the town began requiring permits. Any address was allowed one permit a year and the permits limited yard/garage sales to two days.

As for why that would be seen as an undue burden for private sellers to have to follow the same rules as licensed gun dealers, I can't say with any surety. But as I've said before I don't think any firearms should be allowed to change hands except through licensed gun dealers required to follow whatever state and local procedures have been established by law.

Military Algorithm Identifies Those At Risk Of Committing Violent Crimes

It’s surely law enforcement’s ultimate aim: to predict crimes before they happen. IBM has been working on using its systems to analyze patterns of criminal behavior, then using this data to predict where future crime may take place. But a report in the journal Psychological Medicine is attempting to take this one step further: a team of researchers has developed a complex algorithm that identifies U.S. Army soldiers most likely to commit crimes of a violent nature.

If this sounds like something straight from the movie Minority Report, then you wouldn’t be too far off the mark. Although the movie’s PreCrime organization used the abilities of clairvoyants to detect criminal actions – particularly murder – the military equivalent uses a series of algorithms and a vast amount of background information to make its predictions. Also unlike the Philip K. Dick-inspired movie, the potential criminals will not be arrested before the crime is due to take place, but rather given counseling aimed at curtailing any urges to commit violent acts.
....

kennyc wrote:Here ya go, just arrest 'em before they act.....1984 is here!!

Military Algorithm Identifies Those At Risk Of Committing Violent Crimes

It’s surely law enforcement’s ultimate aim: to predict crimes before they happen. IBM has been working on using its systems to analyze patterns of criminal behavior, then using this data to predict where future crime may take place. But a report in the journal Psychological Medicine is attempting to take this one step further: a team of researchers has developed a complex algorithm that identifies U.S. Army soldiers most likely to commit crimes of a violent nature.

If this sounds like something straight from the movie Minority Report, then you wouldn’t be too far off the mark. Although the movie’s PreCrime organization used the abilities of clairvoyants to detect criminal actions – particularly murder – the military equivalent uses a series of algorithms and a vast amount of background information to make its predictions. Also unlike the Philip K. Dick-inspired movie, the potential criminals will not be arrested before the crime is due to take place, but rather given counseling aimed at curtailing any urges to commit violent acts.
....

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/ ... hey-happen

kennyc wrote:Here ya go, just arrest 'em before they act.....1984 is here!!

Military Algorithm Identifies Those At Risk Of Committing Violent Crimes

It’s surely law enforcement’s ultimate aim: to predict crimes before they happen. IBM has been working on using its systems to analyze patterns of criminal behavior, then using this data to predict where future crime may take place. But a report in the journal Psychological Medicine is attempting to take this one step further: a team of researchers has developed a complex algorithm that identifies U.S. Army soldiers most likely to commit crimes of a violent nature.

If this sounds like something straight from the movie Minority Report, then you wouldn’t be too far off the mark. Although the movie’s PreCrime organization used the abilities of clairvoyants to detect criminal actions – particularly murder – the military equivalent uses a series of algorithms and a vast amount of background information to make its predictions. Also unlike the Philip K. Dick-inspired movie, the potential criminals will not be arrested before the crime is due to take place, but rather given counseling aimed at curtailing any urges to commit violent acts.
....

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/ ... hey-happen

(...)the potential criminals will not be arrested before the crime is due to take place, but rather given counseling aimed at curtailing any urges to commit violent acts.