Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

and then charge him with assault.

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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#41  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 10, 2015 7:31 pm

crank wrote:
San Antonio Police Have Radical Approach To Mental Illness: Treat It
To deal with the problem, San Antonio and Bexar County have completely overhauled their mental health system into a program considered a model for the rest of the nation. Today, the jails are under capacity, and the city has saved $50 million over the past five years.

The effort has focused on an idea called “smart justice” – basically, diverting people with serious mental illness out of jail and into treatment instead. It is possible because all the players in the system that deal with mental illness — the police, the county jail, mental health department, criminal courts, hospitals and homeless programs – pooled their resources to take better care of people with mental illness.


***Note: Bexar is pronounced 'bear'


Thanks for posting that. Now if some other areas of the country could take their heads from up their asses.........
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#42  Postby Acetone » Sep 10, 2015 10:11 pm

I haven't read anything which suggest the patient was beating anyone to a pulp.

Also, why was this guy not admitted into the psychiatric ward? As far as I can tell he was trying to voluntarily check himself in, and was refused? On what grounds?

Not that it matters really, why are the security guards at a hospital armed with guns and so willing to use them inside the hospital on a patient? Why does a hospital guard need a gun?

I can honestly think of no justification for shooting the guy. How far are people willing to allow police to shoot someone? If you're not safe after attempting to voluntarily check yourself into a psych ward, while naked and unarmed in a hospital room then where are you safe? What situations are the police trained for where they don't draw their guns these days?
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#43  Postby Acetone » Sep 10, 2015 10:20 pm

I don't think there's any more information required to come to a rational conclusion in this case. I can honestly not think of any extra information that might change my thoughts on this. And normally I side with the officers that have used force.

The more and more I know though the more and more fucked up American policing seems.

The sad thing is that people are enabling the police to continue to use their favorite excuses and mismanage situations.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#44  Postby crank » Sep 10, 2015 10:53 pm

This is what blind support for cops looks like.


Typical Palin, near total incoherence and she calls BLM people 'dogs'
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#45  Postby GT2211 » Sep 10, 2015 11:53 pm

Oldskeptic wrote:
orpheus wrote:
Byron wrote:From the petition:-
Professionally, we have been trained in truth seeking and healing. As doctors and medical students, as nurses and care partners, we are trained in how to safely restrain and tranquilize patients, no matter how aggressive, or irritable, or anxious, or threatening they may be. Never is it appropriate or warranted for a patient to be tazed, never is it appropriate for a patient to be struck, never, never, never is it appropriate for a patient seeking care, to have their life threatened in our arms.

"Never"?

So if a patient suddenly attacks, say, a member of staff of slight build, they've forfeited their right to defend themselves by striking back? Even if they're willing to make that sacrifice, what if a patient attacks a third party? What if a patient arms themselves with a scalpel, or have a gun in their waistband when they're admitted? Never, never, never is it appropriate to threaten their life, even if they're busy slashing and stabbing their fellow patients, or shooting up the ER?

Oh, I'm sure exceptions would then be made, and never, never, never (thrice for emphasiss, to show we really, really, really mean it, and hope our words gain via repetition the weight denied them by their merits) come to mean sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, which just goes to show the absolutist stance taken by the petition really, really, really hasn't been thought through.


No. Sorry, but no. The right answer is never.


I take issue with this part:

As doctors and medical students, as nurses and care partners, we are trained in how to safely restrain and tranquilize patients, no matter how aggressive, or irritable, or anxious, or threatening they may be.


Are all nurses, nurses aides, doctors, and residents really trained for all that? "no matter how aggressive, or irritable, or anxious, or threatening they may be? I very much doubt it.

I can't speak for cna's but as a nursing student we will spend a semester doing doing clinicals in a psych unit to meet regulations for licensing, any nurse aide should have some training in dealing with combative clients and on the company's policy during those episodes.

From my experience, these things can frequently be avoided by proper de-escalation techniques.

Unfortunately, I think staff even with their training get too caught up in the moment at times and almost push patients into behaviors over trivial stuff
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#46  Postby orpheus » Sep 11, 2015 1:52 am

All of what you say - as well as Oldskeptic's point above - are excellent reasons why bringing guns into these situations is a terrible idea.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#47  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 11, 2015 11:08 am

chairman bill wrote:
monkeyboy wrote:
chairman bill wrote:I've faced seriously disturbed & dangerous patients, in full-on assault mode, set to rip someone's head off, then shit down the hole in their neck. Funnily enough, I never had to shoot anyone.

I'm happy to arrange some training for the incompetents in Houston.

Do you have much experience in the Learning Difficulties field though?

As it happens, extensively

I was meaning for the teaching that'd be required here....
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#48  Postby mcgruff » Sep 11, 2015 1:10 pm

monkeyboy wrote:As usual, I'm not necessarily criticising the individuals involved so much as the piss poor training that they receive which seems to compel them to take control of any situation where aggression is involved, regardless of the cause. The standard response of meeting force with more force is all some LEOs seem to have available to them.


Cops carrying weapons need very strict rules about escalation of force. Simply "taking control" is not a valid reason on its own.



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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#49  Postby crank » Sep 11, 2015 1:50 pm

Acetone wrote:The sad thing is that people are enabling the police to continue to use their favorite excuses and mismanage situations.


This is well documented in my post of the statistics of cops getting charged and convicted. in most cases that make it to trial, so probably some of the worst, with the best evidence, including video, the cops are acquitted.

But even in these most extreme instances, the majority of the officers whose cases have been resolved have not been convicted, The Post analysis found.

And when they are convicted or plead guilty, they’ve tended to get little time behind bars, on average four years and sometimes only weeks. Jurors are very reluctant to punish police officers, tending to view them as guardians of order, according to prosecutors and defense lawyers.


That jurors choose to ignore the behavior of cops because they're 'guardians of order', what does this say about our culture? There is no doubt the fear-mongering press and politicians succeed in their efforts, the costs of engendering cowardice in society go well beyond letting guilty cops go.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#50  Postby proudfootz » Sep 11, 2015 1:59 pm

orpheus wrote:All of what you say - as well as Oldskeptic's point above - are excellent reasons why bringing guns into these situations is a terrible idea.


If they don't carry guns, then there goes the 'he was trying to grab my gun' excuse.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#51  Postby Briton » Sep 11, 2015 3:05 pm

proudfootz wrote:
orpheus wrote:All of what you say - as well as Oldskeptic's point above - are excellent reasons why bringing guns into these situations is a terrible idea.


If they don't carry guns, then there goes the 'he was trying to grab my gun' excuse.


Check this thug out; sounds like he's trying to give himself an excuse to escalate the situation at around 2:30.

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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#52  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 11, 2015 4:27 pm

crank wrote:Training, they need training.


That is the major point. It is common to almost all the cases posted.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#53  Postby crank » Sep 11, 2015 5:52 pm

Briton wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
orpheus wrote:All of what you say - as well as Oldskeptic's point above - are excellent reasons why bringing guns into these situations is a terrible idea.


If they don't carry guns, then there goes the 'he was trying to grab my gun' excuse.


Check this thug out; sounds like he's trying to give himself an excuse to escalate the situation at around 2:30.



Internal Affairs found no wrong doing. I see now why it's so important to wait for those investigations to be done before passing judgement.[/sarcasm]

I don't know about any of you, I've seen plenty of videos with similar behavior. Yelling 'stop trying to take my gun' is particularly chilling. How many innocent people who have done absolutely nothing wrong hear that and nothing else, forever? I'm repeating myself, but without video, I won't believe a cop claiming any kind of resistance as justification for harm done to a citizen. Have you ever seen other cops present who can hear these obvious fabrications object at the time? And later, to not back up the lies? I'll be happy to wait for the investigation when an actual investigation is the norm.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#54  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 11, 2015 6:37 pm

Briton wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
orpheus wrote:All of what you say - as well as Oldskeptic's point above - are excellent reasons why bringing guns into these situations is a terrible idea.


If they don't carry guns, then there goes the 'he was trying to grab my gun' excuse.


Check this thug out; sounds like he's trying to give himself an excuse to escalate the situation at around 2:30.


Prosecutors need to seek some hefty penalties here. Without the video from the front showing a submissive man, the soundtrack no doubt provided by cops from the car at the rear sounds totally contrived to justify all manner of physical abuse in pursuit of a combative and resistive suspect. Seriously worrying is the allegation that he is going for the cop's gun. After all, this claim is used to justify the use of lethal force in some cases.

When caught out like this, they need to throw the book, hell, the whole fucking library at them. Their actions throw doubt on the actions of all legitimate, professional LEOs out there who genuinely might have to use lethal force on someone trying to take their weapon.

Not only should the cop's directly involved be seriously prosecuted but what about those elsewhere who "investigated" and cleared their actions? That they missed the crucial evidence from the second car on scene is at the least gross negligence but if it can be shown they considered it then that's conspiracy to pervert justice, accessory after the fact, whatever the relevant charges are.

I really struggle with seeing this sort of thing. I'm assuming that at recruitment stage, cops are expected to demonstrate principles such as honesty, integrity, professionalism, a wish to protect and serve, some common decency etc and yet we keep seeing exactly the opposite and an institutional acceptance of that corruption of those basic principles. Worse still, in this case, it sounds as though a script was being performed to pre-emptively justify a violent arrest and/or to provide "evidence" to support more serious charges be brought.

Are other LEOs disgusted with them?
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#55  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 11, 2015 6:40 pm

And I mean for their actions, not for getting caught.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#56  Postby purplerat » Sep 11, 2015 6:47 pm

monkeyboy wrote:
Briton wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
orpheus wrote:All of what you say - as well as Oldskeptic's point above - are excellent reasons why bringing guns into these situations is a terrible idea.


If they don't carry guns, then there goes the 'he was trying to grab my gun' excuse.


Check this thug out; sounds like he's trying to give himself an excuse to escalate the situation at around 2:30.


Prosecutors need to seek some hefty penalties here. Without the video from the front showing a submissive man, the soundtrack no doubt provided by cops from the car at the rear sounds totally contrived to justify all manner of physical abuse in pursuit of a combative and resistive suspect. Seriously worrying is the allegation that he is going for the cop's gun. After all, this claim is used to justify the use of lethal force in some cases.

When caught out like this, they need to throw the book, hell, the whole fucking library at them. Their actions throw doubt on the actions of all legitimate, professional LEOs out there who genuinely might have to use lethal force on someone trying to take their weapon.

Not only should the cop's directly involved be seriously prosecuted but what about those elsewhere who "investigated" and cleared their actions? That they missed the crucial evidence from the second car on scene is at the least gross negligence but if it can be shown they considered it then that's conspiracy to pervert justice, accessory after the fact, whatever the relevant charges are.

I really struggle with seeing this sort of thing. I'm assuming that at recruitment stage, cops are expected to demonstrate principles such as honesty, integrity, professionalism, a wish to protect and serve, some common decency etc and yet we keep seeing exactly the opposite and an institutional acceptance of that corruption of those basic principles. Worse still, in this case, it sounds as though a script was being performed to pre-emptively justify a violent arrest and/or to provide "evidence" to support more serious charges be brought.

Agreed, but doubt it will happen.

monkeyboy wrote:
Are other LEOs disgusted with them?

Maybe they are but they certainly aren't saying so, at least not in a meaningful way. Every time one of these videos comes out there's always another cop, or half dozen cops, standing around watching. They never seem to be bothered enough to step in to stop this shit nor are they apparently reporting it afterwards. Hence why we only find out about this once the video is revealed. Which pretty much destroys the "few bad apples" argument apologist will throw out there.

While I don't believe every or most cop in the US is like the ones charged in this case I equally do believe that just about every cop has witnessed such abuses and kept their mouth shut for one reason or another. Part of that I can't even blame them for since the whole system is rigged against bringing this shit to light or doing anything meaningful about it.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#57  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 11, 2015 7:08 pm

That's what I mean by "institutional acceptance". It seems to exist both within the system and without. It's like an automatic response to leap to the cop's defence and accept his word over that of the "bad guy". I'm sure it's well placed and well meant most of the time. It's the way the world should work. I get that.
Unfortunately, because it upsets that order, some people seem blind to the evidence that it isn't always so. Even worse, rather than be keen to cut out the rot, treat the causes and get some training and supportive systems in place to overhaul and improve things, we keep seeing apologetics, excuses and cover ups.
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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#58  Postby crank » Sep 11, 2015 7:34 pm

Unfortunately, this seems rather apropos

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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#59  Postby crank » Sep 11, 2015 8:12 pm

We could have a thread with nothing but reports of this kind, it's page count would skyrocket in no time

James Blake’s Arrest Brings Swift Apologies From New York Officials

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Re: Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital...

#60  Postby proudfootz » Sep 12, 2015 5:01 am

monkeyboy wrote:That's what I mean by "institutional acceptance". It seems to exist both within the system and without. It's like an automatic response to leap to the cop's defence and accept his word over that of the "bad guy". I'm sure it's well placed and well meant most of the time. It's the way the world should work. I get that.
Unfortunately, because it upsets that order, some people seem blind to the evidence that it isn't always so. Even worse, rather than be keen to cut out the rot, treat the causes and get some training and supportive systems in place to overhaul and improve things, we keep seeing apologetics, excuses and cover ups.


It's not a bug in the system - it's a feature.
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