Catalan independance referendum (non-legal)
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Spain was plunged into political crisis on Saturday after the prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, announced that he is stripping Catalonia of its autonomy and imposing direct rule from Madrid in a bid to crush the regional leadership’s move to secede.
The decision, which prompted anger across Catalonia, has escalated Spain’s deepest constitutional crisis since the restoration of democracy in 1977. Observers say the move could resurrect the spectre of Basque nationalism, and have repercussions across a Europe facing the rise of separatist movements.
Following an emergency cabinet meeting on Saturday morning, Rajoy said he was invoking article 155 of the constitution to “restore the rule of law, coexistence and the economic recovery and to ensure that elections could be held in normal circumstances”.
Thommo wrote:Didn't they literally get their constitutional courts to rule on this matter, more than once?
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Thommo wrote:Didn't they literally get their constitutional courts to rule on this matter, more than once?
Playing devil's advocate, if the goal is to secede from the very nation of said courts, why would their rulings matter one bit?
Do you think the English colonists would've cared what a court in England said about the Declaration of Independence?
ronmcd wrote:Spanish minister on Marr this morning explaining some of the violence was "fake", and explaining that of course Catalonia can be independent legally, if the whole of Spain votes for it in a referendum.
Aye.
aban57 wrote:ronmcd wrote:Spanish minister on Marr this morning explaining some of the violence was "fake", and explaining that of course Catalonia can be independent legally, if the whole of Spain votes for it in a referendum.
Aye.
True, except said referendum has to be validated by the central government, which clearly said it would never happen. What do you do in this case ?
Direct rule is a recipe for civil disobedience and hugely increases the scope for conflict. The thousands of Spanish civil guards and national police drafted in for the referendum are still stationed in Catalonia.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... irect-rule
Thommo wrote:Wait for an election and vote in a better prime minister.
Thommo wrote:Didn't they literally get their constitutional courts to rule on this matter, more than once?
GrahamH wrote:Thommo wrote:Wait for an election and vote in a better prime minister.
Do you ever wonder why protest groups defending minority interest ever make a fuss when they could just wait for an election and vote in a leader that will support their interests and oust the oppressing majority's candidate?
GrahamH wrote:Hang on. There's something wrong with the logic there.
Thommo wrote:GrahamH wrote:Thommo wrote:Wait for an election and vote in a better prime minister.
Do you ever wonder why protest groups defending minority interest ever make a fuss when they could just wait for an election and vote in a leader that will support their interests and oust the oppressing majority's candidate?
Actually, that's exactly how most changes do get made. That's how being gay was decriminalised in most countries, it's how gay marriage has been legalised in dozens of countries, it's how the vast majority of franchise extensions have come to pass.
Thommo wrote:
Non democratic means have a track record that is spotty in terms of success and that has resulted in large loss of life in many cases.
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's highly unlikely for any segment of a larger nation to become independent through democratic means.
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Thommo wrote:GrahamH wrote:Thommo wrote:Wait for an election and vote in a better prime minister.
Do you ever wonder why protest groups defending minority interest ever make a fuss when they could just wait for an election and vote in a leader that will support their interests and oust the oppressing majority's candidate?
Actually, that's exactly how most changes do get made. That's how being gay was decriminalised in most countries, it's how gay marriage has been legalised in dozens of countries, it's how the vast majority of franchise extensions have come to pass.
That's not a fair analogy however as there's little chance of the Catalan people ever convincing a majority of Spanish people to support their independence the way people were presuaded to change their minds on SSM. They're distinctly different issues.
Thomas Eshuis wrote:Thommo wrote:
Non democratic means have a track record that is spotty in terms of success and that has resulted in large loss of life in many cases.
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's highly unlikely for any segment of a larger nation to become independent through democratic means.
The Catalan government’s own pollster finds that while 70% want a referendum on the territory’s future, only 48% do if Spanish government doesn’t agree—which it emphatically does not. According to the same poll, support for independence is slowly declining, and now stands at 41%. Mr Rajoy is relying on the courts to stop the referendum, arguing that the rule of law is fundamental to democracy. The Constitutional Tribunal has suspended the two laws. The Civil Guard arrested 14 senior people, most of them Catalan officials, involved in organising the referendum, and has seized 9.8m ballot slips. Mr Puigdemont insists that the vote will go ahead. He is relying on popular mobilisation: tens of thousands protested against the arrests in Barcelona. But it is hard to see the vote being anything more than an unofficial consultation, similar to one held in 2014. Most supporters of “No” side won’t vote. If anything like the 2.3m alleged to have voted in 2014 were to turn out, Mr Puigdemont would claim victory.
ronmcd wrote:Going the legal route in Catalonia, we are told, requires a referendum of all of Spain.
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