'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

Catalan independance referendum (non-legal)

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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#101  Postby aban57 » Oct 06, 2017 11:40 am

The Spanish government cancelled the parliament session planned on Monday, in order to prevent Catalonia to declare their independence there. How long can they keep up with this tactic ?
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#102  Postby ronmcd » Oct 21, 2017 8:54 pm

I dunno. Don't know if it's just me, but I suspect Rajoy's govt may be playing more fast and loose with the constitution than the Catalan government ever were.

Catalonia crisis escalates as Spain set to impose direct rule within days

Spain was plunged into political crisis on Saturday after the prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, announced that he is stripping Catalonia of its autonomy and imposing direct rule from Madrid in a bid to crush the regional leadership’s move to secede.

The decision, which prompted anger across Catalonia, has escalated Spain’s deepest constitutional crisis since the restoration of democracy in 1977. Observers say the move could resurrect the spectre of Basque nationalism, and have repercussions across a Europe facing the rise of separatist movements.

Following an emergency cabinet meeting on Saturday morning, Rajoy said he was invoking article 155 of the constitution to “restore the rule of law, coexistence and the economic recovery and to ensure that elections could be held in normal circumstances”.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#103  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 21, 2017 10:37 pm

I'm not surprised they've gone down this route (I seem to remember raising the possibility a few weeks ago). I'm not sure how it's playing fast and loose with the constitution at all, much less how it's doing so more than the Catalan government.

In any case, a salutary lesson to the more rabid Scottish nationalists. Though it's worth pointing out that devolution could more easily be revoked.
Last edited by Tracer Tong on Oct 21, 2017 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#105  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 21, 2017 11:41 pm

I wouldn't be so solipsistic about it.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#106  Postby Thommo » Oct 22, 2017 7:57 am

Didn't they literally get their constitutional courts to rule on this matter, more than once?
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#107  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 22, 2017 8:04 am

Thommo wrote:Didn't they literally get their constitutional courts to rule on this matter, more than once?

Playing devil's advocate, if the goal is to secede from the very nation of said courts, why would their rulings matter one bit?
Do you think the English colonists would've cared what a court in England said about the Declaration of Independence?
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#108  Postby Thommo » Oct 22, 2017 8:13 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:Didn't they literally get their constitutional courts to rule on this matter, more than once?

Playing devil's advocate, if the goal is to secede from the very nation of said courts, why would their rulings matter one bit?
Do you think the English colonists would've cared what a court in England said about the Declaration of Independence?


Well, you have a point, although it depends what one means by "matter". But clearly it can result in civil war if it's not held to be constitutional, and that would certainly matter in a lot of ways.

Regardless how bad Britain's departure from the EU gets, it's not a matter of armed conflict. The same would (maybe will) be true if Scotland holds an approved referendum like they did in 2014. This cannot be said for a unilateral declaration of independence that ignores that mutuality.

This situation will be orders of magnitude more acriminious. If it stops short of people dying, I will be thrilled.

All that said, I was simply answering Ron's question. No, it does not seem like the constitution is being trampled on when the constitutional procedure is followed to the letter, right up to respecting the courts on the matter. Although I would agree with you that in a sense that ruling might not be all important to the people of Catalonia.

A caveat should be attached to that as well though - "the people" of Catalonia don't all agree and many don't want to leave Spain. The answer to the question of which group within Catalonia is larger, the leavers or the remainers, is unclear. The only thing we know for sure about the declared results of the nullified referendum is that it wasn't representative.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#109  Postby ronmcd » Oct 22, 2017 9:11 am

Spanish minister on Marr this morning explaining some of the violence was "fake", and explaining that of course :roll: Catalonia can be independent legally, if the whole of Spain votes for it in a referendum.

Aye.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#110  Postby aban57 » Oct 22, 2017 9:32 am

ronmcd wrote:Spanish minister on Marr this morning explaining some of the violence was "fake", and explaining that of course :roll: Catalonia can be independent legally, if the whole of Spain votes for it in a referendum.

Aye.


True, except said referendum has to be vallidated by the central government, which clearly said it would never happen. What do you do in this case ?
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#111  Postby Thommo » Oct 22, 2017 12:51 pm

Wait for an election and vote in a better prime minister.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#112  Postby GrahamH » Oct 22, 2017 1:35 pm

aban57 wrote:
ronmcd wrote:Spanish minister on Marr this morning explaining some of the violence was "fake", and explaining that of course :roll: Catalonia can be independent legally, if the whole of Spain votes for it in a referendum.

Aye.


True, except said referendum has to be validated by the central government, which clearly said it would never happen. What do you do in this case ?


Options are very limited. There seems to be no possible democratic resolution to this. The majority nationally will not vote in Catalonia's interests and the central government has demonstrated it's determination to obstruct all attempts at democratic solutions.
Now they are imposing direct rule.
I guess there is a lot more violence on the way.
Direct rule is a recipe for civil disobedience and hugely increases the scope for conflict. The thousands of Spanish civil guards and national police drafted in for the referendum are still stationed in Catalonia.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... irect-rule
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#113  Postby GrahamH » Oct 22, 2017 1:40 pm

Thommo wrote:Wait for an election and vote in a better prime minister.


Do you ever wonder why protest groups defending minority interest ever make a fuss when they could just wait for an election and vote in a leader that will support their interests and oust the oppressing majority's candidate?

Hang on. There's something wrong with the logic there.
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