'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

Catalan independance referendum (non-legal)

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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#163  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 01, 2017 10:13 pm

I didn't see any Nazi salutes. Still, the hostile reception is to be expected.
Die Alten sind weder die Juden, noch die Christen, noch die Engländer der Poesie. Sie sind nicht ein willkürlich auserwähltes Kunstvolk Gottes; noch haben sie den alleinseligmachenden Schönheitsglauben; noch besitzen sie ein Dichtungsmonopol.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#167  Postby Thommo » Nov 01, 2017 10:36 pm

I can't see any either, I see two guys with their arms in the air about half way through, one of them is clearly holding his camera phone.

I've no idea how I determine that's angry nazis, as compared to, say, angry Catalonians whose democratic will got ignored by those politicians when they made a UDI without a democratic process.

Perhaps you can provide a time index or something?

ETA: Maybe it's this woman at the 0:28 mark? I guess it could be a Nazi salute, but I don't understand what they're saying and she's bending and straightening her arm in a motion that I don't really understand when you see the moving footage. Could be a salute, I guess, or a shooing motion.

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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#168  Postby Thommo » Nov 01, 2017 10:37 pm

ronmcd wrote:What surprises me is the *shrug* reaction from ... well, most people at the moment here in UK. Weird.


I don't think many people in the UK are all that interested in constitutional law are they? Let alone Spanish constitutional law.

So I'm not sure it would be all that weird.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#169  Postby ronmcd » Nov 01, 2017 10:52 pm

26secs.
https://twitter.com/Berlustinho/status/ ... 5073741824

I certainly wouldn't even be considering that's what it was if it hadn't been happening quite frequently since all this started (started from our perspective from the outside, that is).
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#170  Postby Thommo » Nov 01, 2017 10:54 pm

Well, if she's a Nazi, then fuck her, I guess.

ETA: Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#171  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 01, 2017 11:51 pm

I watched it twice. As far as I can tell, the woman is just waving them away. But if some random lady has done a fascist salute, I'm not sure what the significance is.
Die Alten sind weder die Juden, noch die Christen, noch die Engländer der Poesie. Sie sind nicht ein willkürlich auserwähltes Kunstvolk Gottes; noch haben sie den alleinseligmachenden Schönheitsglauben; noch besitzen sie ein Dichtungsmonopol.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#174  Postby Thommo » Nov 02, 2017 8:26 pm

When you look at the situations in France, the USA or Italy that seems a bad idea. Much better to have politicians subject to the same laws as the rest of us, rather than be given protections by virtue of their office.

Or maybe Sturgeon is suggesting she knows that no crime has been committed, due to her position as a constitutional lawyer.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#175  Postby Tracer Tong » Nov 02, 2017 9:10 pm

Yeah, both of the quoted statements are odd. Varoufakis' is simply wrong, and obviously wrong; and I've no idea how Sturgeon has reached such a determination. Why should elected representatives (leaders or otherwise) be given immunity from imprisonment?
Die Alten sind weder die Juden, noch die Christen, noch die Engländer der Poesie. Sie sind nicht ein willkürlich auserwähltes Kunstvolk Gottes; noch haben sie den alleinseligmachenden Schönheitsglauben; noch besitzen sie ein Dichtungsmonopol.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#176  Postby ronmcd » Nov 02, 2017 9:41 pm

Because what we are talking about is elected politicians organising a referendum, and then being arrested for something we would routinely think democratic. The actions of a state which then arrested those politicians we would routinely condemn ...
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#180  Postby Thommo » Nov 02, 2017 10:07 pm

ronmcd wrote:Because what we are talking about is elected politicians organising a referendum, and then being arrested for something we would routinely think democratic. The actions of a state which then arrested those politicians we would routinely condemn ...


I don't know who the "we" there is, because it seems to exclude every democratically elected national leader in Europe, the majority opinion in all EU institutions, large numbers of the Spanish and Catalonian general populations and several members of this forum participating in this thread.

A legal referendum undoubtedly enjoys support among those groups, an illegal one that costs the public millions and results in a completely undemocratic result is something else. And a UDI is something even more remote.

Your summary omits every important specific of what's happened in Catalonia.

One needs to have no opinion for or against the Catalonian separatist cause to think that people should abide by the law, they are entirely separate questions. There is a difference between what happens regularly in Russia (opposition politicians frequently being jailed or turning up dead) and what happened in Catalonia (local politicians were arrested for acts alleged to amount to crimes that they fairly visibly took) that requires absolutely no subtlety of mind to notice.
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