'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

Catalan independance referendum (non-legal)

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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#81  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 4:48 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:I expect that, whatever he chose to do, it wouldn't have been to steam ahead with a referendum anyway.

Oh I dunno, I suspect it may well have been. We certainly wouldn't have had riot police battering people who tried to vote, there would likely have been a much more polite and sensible response, with the unionist parties telling pro union voters to keep away, and the turnout and result would have made it largely irrelevant.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#82  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 4:54 pm

GrahamH wrote:Do you want principles to be completely universal from continents down to individuals? That' would be utterly ridiculous.


Probably not, if there really were a principle which decided when some group of people was entitled to a secession referendum one would hope it would separate out both of those cases.

In fact there is such a principle - it's enshrined in Spanish law and does just that. The issue is that you've said you reject that principle and then gone on to arbitrate that certain groups (regions of England, counties, towns and so on) are not worthy, but other groups are.

GrahamH wrote:Autonomous regions with their own parliaments are clearly different to county councils, parish councils businesses or individuals. It's absurd to argue that self determination cannot apply to autonomous regions unless it applies to individuals or 'Oxfordshire'.


What constitutes an autonomous region? Why should Oxfordshire or Southeast England not be capable of being such?

Are you saying that the dividing line for who gets a referendum is some specific level of local government already existing and having been granted powers by the same national parliament and same constitution that you reject as getting to decide who gets referenda?

GrahamH wrote:In any case individuals should be free to move, which a region cannot do.
I think yours was the 'pointless jab'.


Actually the "region" you're referring to there is the people of a region, and yes, then can move. You're winding yourself up in semantics again, there was never any suggestion that anything other than people (of a region) would get to vote in a referendum - that would be obviously silly.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#83  Postby GrahamH » Oct 03, 2017 5:09 pm

Thommo wrote:
What constitutes an autonomous region? Why should Oxfordshire or Southeast England not be capable of being such?


AFAIK that is the status of Catalonia recognised by the Spanish government. I assume it is like the Scottish government has a recognised autonomy in a sense that a county council does not. That seems simple enough. :scratch:

Thommo wrote:Actually the "region" you're referring to there is the people of a region, and yes, then can move. You're winding yourself up in semantics again, there was never any suggestion that anything other than people (of a region) would get to vote in a referendum - that would be obviously silly.


If the people don't like it they can fuck off somewhere else? :shock: You must be joking.
If the Scots don't like being ruled from London they can go and live in France. Is that how it works?

That's not a solution. Not only is it abhorrent to displace a population rom their homeland like that where would they go? Nobody is moving, the issue is governance of the region where they live.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#84  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 5:48 pm

You're just being deliberately obtuse. You say that it's a fine idea for people to move then mock the thought that it's a fine idea for people to move when it's pointed out it applies to both groups as well as individuals.

As far as I can tell this latest variant is suggesting that regions which have local governments that are afforded certain greater levels of powers and competences (that explicitly exclude a right of secession and explicitly exclude a right to call regional referenda on the matter) by a national government are automatically entitled to hold referenda on secession. You seem to be suggesting that this is extremely obvious and that equally it is absurd to think a region like the southeast of England could be granted similar powers and competences. This in spite of the acceptance that those "autonomies" are granted by the exact same body and exact same mechanism to regions of smaller population and in spite of the fact you advocate holding back the rights for secession and referenda where those other powers are also withheld.

I see no basis for a reasonable discussion here.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#85  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 03, 2017 5:55 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I expect that, whatever he chose to do, it wouldn't have been to steam ahead with a referendum anyway.

Oh I dunno, I suspect it may well have been. We certainly wouldn't have had riot police battering people who tried to vote, there would likely have been a much more polite and sensible response, with the unionist parties telling pro union voters to keep away, and the turnout and result would have made it largely irrelevant.


It all seems fairly outlandish to me. The modern-day SNP is committed to achieving independence via strictly legal means, which is participating in a long British, and Scottish, ideal of respecting the rule of law; and Salmond strikes me as a supporter of that approach. Had he faced a situation in which permission for a referendum was refused, he would probably have just campaigned, through the courts and in the media, to have that refusal overturned, rather than unilaterally declare he was having a referendum anyway. Even on the pretty unlikely scenario of his making such a declaration, I'm not sure whether Scots (along with everyone else) would so much approve or disapprove of his decision as just be completely nonplussed.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#86  Postby ronmcd » Oct 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I expect that, whatever he chose to do, it wouldn't have been to steam ahead with a referendum anyway.

Oh I dunno, I suspect it may well have been. We certainly wouldn't have had riot police battering people who tried to vote, there would likely have been a much more polite and sensible response, with the unionist parties telling pro union voters to keep away, and the turnout and result would have made it largely irrelevant.


It all seems fairly outlandish to me. The modern-day SNP is committed to achieving independence via strictly legal means, which is participating in a long British, and Scottish, ideal of respecting the rule of law; and Salmond strikes me as a supporter of that approach. Had he faced a situation in which permission for a referendum was refused, he would probably have just campaigned, through the courts and in the media, to have that refusal overturned, rather than unilaterally declare he was having a referendum anyway. Even on the pretty unlikely scenario of his making such a declaration, I'm not sure whether Scots (along with everyone else) would so much approve or disapprove of his decision as just be completely nonplussed.

We're not talking a unilateral 'declaration' of anything, certainly not independence, but the legality of holding a referendum to gauge support was on the cards at the time. The legality of holding a consultative referendum was debated and argued with opinions on both sides, it just became irrelevant. It might have happened, it may even have been legal. The argument at the time was that the referendum would have been challenged in the supreme court to find out, as I believe the Spanish govt did recently in their case, and won.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#87  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 03, 2017 8:50 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:I expect that, whatever he chose to do, it wouldn't have been to steam ahead with a referendum anyway.

Oh I dunno, I suspect it may well have been. We certainly wouldn't have had riot police battering people who tried to vote, there would likely have been a much more polite and sensible response, with the unionist parties telling pro union voters to keep away, and the turnout and result would have made it largely irrelevant.


It all seems fairly outlandish to me. The modern-day SNP is committed to achieving independence via strictly legal means, which is participating in a long British, and Scottish, ideal of respecting the rule of law; and Salmond strikes me as a supporter of that approach. Had he faced a situation in which permission for a referendum was refused, he would probably have just campaigned, through the courts and in the media, to have that refusal overturned, rather than unilaterally declare he was having a referendum anyway. Even on the pretty unlikely scenario of his making such a declaration, I'm not sure whether Scots (along with everyone else) would so much approve or disapprove of his decision as just be completely nonplussed.

We're not talking a unilateral 'declaration' of anything, certainly not independence, but the legality of holding a referendum to gauge support was on the cards at the time. The legality of holding a consultative referendum was debated and argued with opinions on both sides, it just became irrelevant. It might have happened, it may even have been legal. The argument at the time was that the referendum would have been challenged in the supreme court to find out, as I believe the Spanish govt did recently in their case, and won.


I know we're not talking about a declaration of independence; I merely referred an announcement that a referendum would be held despite permission being refused. I've outlined why I don't think such a referendum would ever have been attempted, had that permission not been granted; it's just not the way British or Scottish politics works, generally speaking. If you say you're not suggesting one would have been announced, then we're in some agreement about what Salmond would have done had David Cameron refused the request.

On the matter of Catalonia, Felipe has now been on the television roasting the Catalan government. I wonder if this is a prelude to an effective end of autonomous status.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#88  Postby Thommo » Oct 04, 2017 7:36 am

Tracer Tong wrote:On the matter of Catalonia, Felipe has now been on the television roasting the Catalan government. I wonder if this is a prelude to an effective end of autonomous status.


Puigdemont has said that Catalonia will announce independence in a matter of days as well.

I think this is a prelude to more violence and a complete fucking mess, sadly.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#89  Postby GrahamH » Oct 04, 2017 8:03 am

Thommo wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:On the matter of Catalonia, Felipe has now been on the television roasting the Catalan government. I wonder if this is a prelude to an effective end of autonomous status.


Puigdemont has said that Catalonia will announce independence in a matter of days as well.

I think this is a prelude to more violence and a complete fucking mess, sadly.


What do you think the central government will do?
According to Puigdemont in that interview they have refused his invitation to mediation.
What with the force used against voters and the hard line from the king is it going to be troups on the streets and forced shutdown of the parliament? It all seems poised for major escalation.
Why do you think that?
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#90  Postby Thommo » Oct 04, 2017 8:08 am

GrahamH wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:On the matter of Catalonia, Felipe has now been on the television roasting the Catalan government. I wonder if this is a prelude to an effective end of autonomous status.


Puigdemont has said that Catalonia will announce independence in a matter of days as well.

I think this is a prelude to more violence and a complete fucking mess, sadly.


What do you think the central government will do?
According to Puigdemont in that interview they have refused his invitation to mediation.
What with the force used against voters and the hard line from the king is it going to be troups on the streets and forced shutdown of the parliament? It all seems poised for major escalation.


That seems all too likely, yes.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#91  Postby Ironclad » Oct 04, 2017 11:46 am

I thought the scenes were very unpleasant, even the Catalan police and fire department were getting problems. I think the Catalan police will be disbanded soon, terrible mess.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#92  Postby GrahamH » Oct 04, 2017 11:53 am

Ironclad wrote:I thought the scenes were very unpleasant, even the Catalan police and fire department were getting problems. I think the Catalan police will be disbanded soon, terrible mess.


You mean to disempower the Catalans? You think national Civil Guard (the ones with the batons and rubber bullets) will move in and take over?
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#94  Postby GrahamH » Oct 04, 2017 2:03 pm

I don't know if this is a reliable source, but report here
https://www.elconfidencial.com/

Translation

Defense sends two convoys to Barcelona for logistical support to Civil Guard and Police
Defense Tuesday ordered the sending of the Army to Catalonia with material and to provide logistical support to the Civil Guard and the National Police . Although they are routine maneuvers, the fact is that these occur after the events experienced during the last 72 hours in this autonomous community. Several convoys left this past morning from Zaragoza to reinforce the State Security Forces.
Among the units of the army displaced is the Logistic Support Group 41 (AALOG 41) with headquarters in the San Jorge Base of the Aragonese capital. At 19.00 hours on Tuesday , just 60 minutes after it was known that the King was going to go to the nation , Army commanders told their subordinates to prepare to send to Barcelona two contingents composed of a total of 20 trucks. The unit had already been in pre-alert for a week, a protocol that forced its components to be locatable in order to be activated in a short space of time. Finally, the transfer took place this Tuesday.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#95  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 04, 2017 4:24 pm

Hopefully this will be resolved peacefully and not dissolve into civil war.

*Edit, bolded bit.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#96  Postby Ironclad » Oct 04, 2017 5:30 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Ironclad wrote:I thought the scenes were very unpleasant, even the Catalan police and fire department were getting problems. I think the Catalan police will be disbanded soon, terrible mess.


You mean to disempower the Catalans? You think national Civil Guard (the ones with the batons and rubber bullets) will move in and take over?
Yes, and yes
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#97  Postby Macdoc » Oct 04, 2017 11:30 pm

This is not going away .... Spain needs to sit down and talk seperation ....the actions of Madrid sealed the deal for the Catalan's - I don't see them going caving ....

This has been a very very long term effort ...centuries in the making ....

Catalonia region profile - BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20345071
3 days ago - Provides an overview of Catalonia, including key events and facts about this ... regions, and also one of the most independent-minded. With a distinct history stretching back to the early middle ages, many Catalans think of ...

It needs a Chek/Slovak peaceful partition....

Quebec weighs in

Quebec passes unanimous motion condemning Spain’s ‘authoritarianism’ over Catalonia
Parti Québécois Leader Jean-François Lisée tabled the motion that was accepted by all members of the legislature.


https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/201 ... lonia.html

#WORLD NEWSOCTOBER 4, 2017 / 10:05 AM / UPDATED 3 HOURS AGO
Catalonia moves to declare independence from Spain on Monday
Angus Berwick, Sonya Dowsett
7 MIN READ

BARCELONA/MADRID (Reuters) - Catalonia will move on Monday to declare independence from Spain after holding a banned referendum, pushing the European Union nation towards a rupture that threatens the foundations of its young democracy.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spain- ... KKCN1C90YW
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#98  Postby I'm With Stupid » Oct 05, 2017 1:25 am

Fucking hell, it's like Trump has temporarily taken over the Spanish government. Just when you think they can't be any more stupid, they manage to go one better.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#99  Postby electricwhiteboy » Oct 06, 2017 10:42 am

I'm With Stupid wrote:Fucking hell, it's like Trump has temporarily taken over the Spanish government. Just when you think they can't be any more stupid, they manage to go one better.


You've only just noticed that Rajoy is completely incompetent? You must have missed the time he held a press "conference" on allegations of corruption by putting a TV on stage which played a pre-recorded video statement. This is not the first time the Civil Guard have gone full "beast mode" on protestors complaining about the failings of Spanish democracy either.
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Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#100  Postby mrjonno » Oct 06, 2017 11:22 am

Nationalism makes even the best do very stupid things :(
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