'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

Catalan independance referendum (non-legal)

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: Blip, The_Metatron

'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#1  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 5:04 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#2  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Oct 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Beating independence voters is an excellent way of making their point.
'The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man
knows himself to be a fool.'
- As You Like It - William Shakespeare
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 11845
Age: 50
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#3  Postby aban57 » Oct 02, 2017 6:27 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.


Just like the Kurdistan's vote last week. Which could change a lot the topography in the region.
User avatar
aban57
 
Name: Cédric
Posts: 3951
Age: 38

Country: France
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#4  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 02, 2017 8:50 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.


I agree with your father, actually. Well, perhaps partly.
User avatar
Tracer Tong
 
Posts: 1090
Male

Country: England
England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#5  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 02, 2017 8:58 pm

aban57 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.


Just like the Kurdistan's vote last week. Which could change a lot the topography in the region.


I doubt things will get that bad.
User avatar
Tracer Tong
 
Posts: 1090
Male

Country: England
England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#6  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 02, 2017 9:06 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
aban57 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.


Just like the Kurdistan's vote last week. Which could change a lot the topography in the region.


I doubt things will get that bad.


It could if the Iranians go nuclear to stop the Kurds ...
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
Moderator
 
Posts: 21031
Age: 55
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#7  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 11:00 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.


I agree with your father, actually. Well, perhaps partly.

If your argument is X should not be done because it is illegal, then the Egyptians and Irish shouldn't have demonstrated for independance/democracy either.
If you then shift the goal posts to specific circumstances, you have just admitted it's not simply a matter of what is illegal, but also the context of the situation.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#8  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 02, 2017 11:22 pm

Uh huh.
User avatar
Tracer Tong
 
Posts: 1090
Male

Country: England
England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#9  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Oct 02, 2017 11:26 pm

Not to mention monarchies like Spain and the UK can refuse to allow almost any succession on a whim. To argue against Catalan independence because it's illegal under a constitution which would have conflicted with human rights law had it not been written by governments with a vested interest themselves is fatuous.
User avatar
Ihavenofingerprints
 
Posts: 6903
Age: 24
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#10  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 11:30 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:Uh huh.

Glad to see you agree.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#11  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 11:31 pm

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Not to mention monarchies like Spain and the UK can refuse to allow almost any succession on a whim. To argue against Catalan independence because it's illegal under a constitution which would have conflicted with human rights law had it not been written by governments with a vested interest themselves is fatuous.

There's also a difference between not recognising a public referendum as legally binding and outlawing a referendum which has no legal power anyway.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#12  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 02, 2017 11:33 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:Uh huh.

Glad to see you agree.


Uh huh.
User avatar
Tracer Tong
 
Posts: 1090
Male

Country: England
England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#13  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Oct 02, 2017 11:55 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Not to mention monarchies like Spain and the UK can refuse to allow almost any succession on a whim. To argue against Catalan independence because it's illegal under a constitution which would have conflicted with human rights law had it not been written by governments with a vested interest themselves is fatuous.

There's also a difference between not recognising a public referendum as legally binding and outlawing a referendum which has no legal power anyway.


Has no legal power under a constitution which doesn't allow for succession. We all get it.

I didn't say I support the independence cause, but I think they have a right to freedom of assembly, freedom of expression and freedom to hold elections under EU law (or any just law) unmolested from Spanish police. Do they have an ultimate right to succeed? That's the most difficult question but we only need to answer it once the ballot has taken place without interference.
User avatar
Ihavenofingerprints
 
Posts: 6903
Age: 24
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#14  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 02, 2017 11:59 pm

I'm not so much talking about whether they should be allowed to secede, but whether they should be allowed to hold non-binding referanda.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#15  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 4:26 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:My dad, who's quite progressive, said they shouldn't have gone through with it because the referendum was illegal. :facepalm:
When I asked whether the people in Egypt and Ireland shouldn't have protested because it was illegal, he claimed it was a different situation.
He refuses to realise that it therefore has nothing to do with legality.


I agree with your father, actually. Well, perhaps partly.


I would certainly say he has a point. Violence and a lack of legitimacy were always real risks of defying a lawful order not to hold the referendum and the Catalan government would absolutely have been able to see this outcome ahead of time as a real risk.

I don't think it's fair to say they bear all the responsibility though, clearly many other options (such as just permitting the referendum to be conducted legally on a reasonable timetable) were also available to the Spanish government. Undoubtedly the coming weeks will also show individuals both among the populace and the police who have acted violently, provocatively and in ways that cannot be excused.

I would add that this is a situation I don't honestly know all that much about. From the relatively little I know, it's not at all clear that Catalan separatists have exhausted their methods of peaceful protest or avenues for a diplomatic resolution at this point. I don't think they were obliged to make provocative statements about declaring independence in the event of a "yes" in a referendum they know cannot possibly be representative or legitimate.

As if often the case, there are two sides to this story and many opportunities for people to have acted differently. The sad thing is that it has come to violence.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 21639

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#16  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 4:32 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:If your argument is X should not be done because it is illegal, then the Egyptians and Irish shouldn't have demonstrated for independance/democracy either.


Which demonstration in Ireland are you talking about and how do you think it relates?
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 21639

Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#17  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 4:34 am

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:Not to mention monarchies like Spain and the UK can refuse to allow almost any succession on a whim. To argue against Catalan independence because it's illegal under a constitution which would have conflicted with human rights law had it not been written by governments with a vested interest themselves is fatuous.


How does human rights law or constitutional monarchy affect this?

Can an individual region in, say, Germany (like Bavaria, or a specific town, village or household) declare independence without any chance for objections based on the law or the interests of people living in other parts of Germany?

Should we suppose that the northern states of the USA were in the wrong when they prevented the south from seceding?

I'm not sure that you're wrong, but I think there's a lot more to this issue of what constitutes a legitimate state, or a legitimate reason to break up a state and what the best ways of achieving that are, than has been touched on so far. One example of a question that springs to mind is: One of the factors that comes up repeatedly in discussion of motivations of Catalans wanting independence is that they are a rich region that pays money in taxes that gets redirected to help people in poorer regions of Spain. Is that a legitimate reason for independence?

ETA: secession. succession.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 21639

Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#18  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 03, 2017 7:46 am

Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:If your argument is X should not be done because it is illegal, then the Egyptians and Irish shouldn't have demonstrated for independance/democracy either.


Which demonstration in Ireland are you talking about and how do you think it relates?

For example this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#19  Postby Thommo » Oct 03, 2017 7:56 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:If your argument is X should not be done because it is illegal, then the Egyptians and Irish shouldn't have demonstrated for independance/democracy either.


Which demonstration in Ireland are you talking about and how do you think it relates?

For example this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)


Was that march illegal? Was that the problem?
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 21639

Print view this post

Re: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters

#20  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 03, 2017 8:09 am

Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:If your argument is X should not be done because it is illegal, then the Egyptians and Irish shouldn't have demonstrated for independance/democracy either.


Which demonstration in Ireland are you talking about and how do you think it relates?

For example this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)


Was that march illegal? Was that the problem?

On 18 January 1972 Brian Faulkner, Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, banned all parades and marches in Northern Ireland until the end of the year.[21]

On 22 January 1972, a week before Bloody Sunday, an anti-internment march was held at Magilligan strand, near Derry. The protesters marched to a new internment camp there, but were stopped by soldiers of the Parachute Regiment. When some protesters threw stones and tried to go around the barbed wire, paratroopers drove them back by firing rubber bullets at close range and making baton charges. The paratroopers badly beat a number of protesters and had to be physically restrained by their own officers. These allegations of brutality by paratroopers were reported widely on television and in the press. Some in the Army also thought there had been undue violence by the paratroopers.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 27138
Age: 28
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Next

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest